"An Open Letter to Cock de Gorter and the CSVN Board"

[Zherkovv]

Read it all and what can I say...a little self humility never hurts.

No doubt that Harvey was an amazing prick at this dinner party when Cock presumably casually mentioned in an aside that he was using a crack. Nevertheless, he's kind of right. Moral high road and all that.

I thought I was quite reserved and still paid more that two thirds of the bill for the 3 of us

Harvey PAID for the Turkey, that's for sure.....

Examples, by "Harvey Williamson" posted in the Rybka-Forum: (25 december 2010)

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=19968


By Harvey Williamson Date 2010-12-25 12:03 Unless they just take the easy route and copy someone elses hard work. It would be a nice idea to shut some of today's so called 'original' engine programmers in a closed room with people like Mark and Stefan and gve them all a blank sheet of paper. How many would be able to produce an engine that plays fairly strong Chess in a reasonable ammount of time. I suspect some of the authors of supposed 3000+ engines would not even complete the task.


By Harvey Williamson Date 2010-12-25 13:31 Closing a website is not the same. Anyway happy Christmas all. I hope you all continue to find ways of making yourselves feel good about playing with your stolen presents.
aurevoir time to eat the Turkey I PAID for. I doubt many of you even paid for the Rybka you use,

By Harvey Williamson Date 2010-12-25 12:49 I could take the so called top engine change 1 parameter and recompile wow I now have my own number 1 engine - easy!

[Gerd Isenberg]

I have been in Holland as well, end of November at the tournament. I was quite surprised to hear about Harvey's ban and the reasons afterwards. Thorsten's emotional, ideological, personal and dogmatic reasoning to divide the world in good and bad guys is far off the topic.

I like and respect Cock de Gorter as well, and I can very well remember Aegon tournaments I played, and what Cock did to push computer chess in that times. But he (and the CSVN board) was simply wrong to ban Harvey, no matter what his reasoning was to play with a cracked Junior. And Harvey was right to call wrong doing wrong and to make it public and to call names after more than four weeks.

Guten Rutsch,
Gerd

[Jeremy Bernstein]

Amazing he pm'd you with such speed if he is not you. btw I did not ban you and Rob is unable to. I just looked at the CB log they have not been banned or any action taken.

You are not an honest individual. I have forwarded the pm to Jeremy and he can verify and assure you that I am who I say I am. Also that the pm did come from another member.

Confirmed. I don't want to be part of this quarrel, though.

I have a non-engine room playchess account which I got for free when I bought Fritz, which I never use. I've never had to deal with Harvey as part of my online chess playing activities, though. I will say that everything I've heard and read would indicate that Harvey plays fast and loose with the rules and moderates the Engine Room like an arbitrary dictator, which isn't cool.

Probably the only solution is to confront his bosses (e.g. Chessbase GmbH) with enough evidence that they are forced to either moderate or replace him in his sysop role. Complaining about it to him or to his buddies with the boot button is not likely to get anyone very far, and if retribution in the form of arbitrary booting and banning is a potential outcome, even less so.

Feel free to use this forum for organizing an online petition or letter-writing campaign, though.

Jeremy

[kingliveson]

Amazing he pm'd you with such speed if he is not you. btw I did not ban you and Rob is unable to. I just looked at the CB log they have not been banned or any action taken.

You are not an honest individual. I have forwarded the pm to Jeremy and he can verify and assure you that I am who I say I am. Also that the pm did come from another member.

Confirmed. I don't want to be part of this quarrel, though.

I have a non-engine room playchess account which I got for free when I bought Fritz, which I never use. I've never had to deal with Harvey as part of my online chess playing activities, though. I will say that everything I've heard and read would indicate that Harvey plays fast and loose with the rules and moderates the Engine Room like an arbitrary dictator, which isn't cool.

Probably the only solution is to confront his bosses (e.g. Chessbase GmbH) with enough evidence that they are forced to either moderate or replace him in his sysop role. Complaining about it to him or to his buddies with the boot button is not likely to get anyone very far, and if retribution in the form of arbitrary booting and banning is a potential outcome, even less so.

Feel free to use this forum for organizing an online petition or letter-writing campaign, though.

Jeremy

Thank you!! Personally I gave up on PlayChess after being frustrated by the sysops. Though Harvey played a role, he is not the main character. There were several phone calls to the Germany Headquarter, emails, and even a collective effort trying to relay message through Frederic Freidel after several others were muted, banned, and saw their ranks demoted, all to no avail. I don't mean to re-litigate this, but let the record be corrected. See a couple more server log/chat with bold parts being where there was communication between I and the sysops (Harvey and Rob):


->Gortt9: Richard hi!

->: hello

->The Referee: Hello

The Referee: am away for a while... please leave servermail

The Referee: hello yes?

->The Referee: Why was my account muted?

The Referee: you need to talk to Holger about that

->The Referee: He crashed my system by auto logging me off while i was in the middle of a game and lost the email he sent me

The Referee: you need his email?

->The Referee: yes

The Referee: [xxxx.xxxx@xxxx.de]

->The Referee: Thank you. I will ask him why he muted me. to my knowledge i violated no
policy. I am a paying custumer here. Thanks

The Referee: welcome

Gortt9: find out anything?
->Gortt9: well my othe account was muted

Gortt9 (To all): ..

Gortt9: im not recieveing anything your writeing

->Gortt9: muted

Gortt9: write something in main cht

->To all: ..

Gortt9 (To all): oo

Gortt9 (To all): [EMO_QUESTION]

Gortt9 (To all): test!!

Gortt9 (To all): hmm i cant get anything from kingliveson2..

->Help English: I am waiting for Holdger_Lieske to get back on so he can tell my which
policy i violated that he had to mute my account

->HarveyWilliamson: Harvey for what reason was my account muted?

HarveyWilliamson: it was done by Holger ask him

->HarveyWilliamson: No notes was left or reason given?

HarveyWilliamson: your comments about robbo it says

->HarveyWilliamson: Is it a violation of this server to make comments about robbo? I am
being serious.

HarveyWilliamson: the rules are the rules if you play here you must obey them and robo is
not allowed

->HarveyWilliamson: Harvey, the rules are the rules. which rule did i violate. it is
noted "my comments about robbo." Is it a violation to make a statement about robbo?

HarveyWilliamson: i am on holiday talk to holger - we are all sick ofpeople trying to
use robo we have better things to do with our time - email holger if you want to
discuss further

->HarveyWilliamson: I did not use robbo

5:19 PM
->HarveyWilliamson: I have told many people here in the past though i dont agree with
the policy, you have to respect the rules here. So, I am asking for fairnes and
explanation. Which rule did i violate that warrants the muting of my account?

HarveyWilliamson: talk to holger i am on holiday in a pub in tel aviv

->HarveyWilliamson: This is really interesting. As a sysop on the server, Harvey, you cant
tell me which rule or policy i violated. I am a paid customer here. I paid money to have
full access.

HarveyWilliamson: if you had used robo u would not be here

->HarveyWilliamson: There is no reason for my account to not have full access. I have
violated any of the server policy. Making a comment on robbo is not a violation of the
server and I am asking that my acount be reinstated to full state

->HarveyWilliamson: I have not violated* correction above

HarveyWilliamson: email holger that is a simple request

->HarveyWilliamson: I think it is shameful that anyone can shut off an account because they
are in a bad mood whether or not there is a reason for it. I will send chessbase an email
about this and all call them about this. this is outrageous.

It was obvious dishonesty on Harvey's part to come here and say that I made offensive remark to a German sysop knowing well that was not what happened. Let the record be corrected.

[thorstenczub]

I have been in Holland as well, end of November at the tournament. I was quite surprised to hear about Harvey's ban and the reasons afterwards. Thorsten's emotional, ideological, personal and dogmatic reasoning to divide the world in good and bad guys is far off the topic.

I like and respect Cock de Gorter as well, and I can very well remember Aegon tournaments I played, and what Cock did to push computer chess in that times. But he (and the CSVN board) was simply wrong to ban Harvey, no matter what his reasoning was to play with a cracked Junior. And Harvey was right to call wrong doing wrong and to make it public and to call names after more than four weeks.

Guten Rutsch,
Gerd

Hi Gerd. how do you know what happened in the restaurant ?

Der Ton macht die Musik.

[Gerd Isenberg]

I have been in Holland as well, end of November at the tournament. I was quite surprised to hear about Harvey's ban and the reasons afterwards. Thorsten's emotional, ideological, personal and dogmatic reasoning to divide the world in good and bad guys is far off the topic.

I like and respect Cock de Gorter as well, and I can very well remember Aegon tournaments I played, and what Cock did to push computer chess in that times. But he (and the CSVN board) was simply wrong to ban Harvey, no matter what his reasoning was to play with a cracked Junior. And Harvey was right to call wrong doing wrong and to make it public and to call names after more than four weeks.

Guten Rutsch,
Gerd

Hi Gerd. how do you know what happened in the restaurant ?

Hi Thorsten,
I don't know of course, but it was not directly related to the 30th Dutch Open and Harvey operating Hiarcs there. Some personal issues between Cock and Harvey should not yield in an official ban of Harvey as Hiarcs team member by the CSVN. The escalation was due to the ban, and there was enough time for the CSVN board from Harvey's initial post about the ban without name calling on December 2, to solve that issue accordantly.

Der Ton macht die Musik.

Yes, your tone versus Harvey was also not that melodic and constructive. We humans are all assholes up and then and likely have a dark side too

Cheers,
Gerd

[Rob Osborne]

To Franklin T. aka Kingliveson:

It is totally and absolutely, 100% my fault that Harvey thought you were Overpoint/Marc as I had some "brain fart" the KLO was one of Marc's nick. I don't keep records or spreadsheets of all the nicks and who is who... so you will just have to accept it as a result of my human frailty.

You, on the other hand, have falsely accused Harvey of banning accounts, accused him of lying when such was not the case... impugned his behaviour... all in a very weak, very pathetic manner.

Let us see now if you are a man (or can act like one) and can apologize to him.

Regards,
Rob Osborne

[kingliveson]

To Franklin T. aka Kingliveson:

It is totally and absolutely, 100% my fault that Harvey thought you were Overpoint/Marc as I had some "brain fart" the KLO was one of Marc's nick. I don't keep records or spreadsheets of all the nicks and who is who... so you will just have to accept it as a result of my human frailty.

You, on the other hand, have falsely accused Harvey of banning accounts, accused him of lying when such was not the case... impugned his behaviour... all in a very weak, very pathetic manner.

Let us see now if you are a man (or can act like one) and can apologize to him.

Regards,
Rob Osborne

Nice to see you've finally decided to join a forum where discussions from all points of view are allowed. Now, Harvey has been proven to be dishonest and shamed to the point that you are dispersed to come do his dirty work. You ought to be ashamed.

ChessBase owes me money, and Holger, Harvey, and yourself owe myself and few others an apology. What nerves you have after the nonesense you partook in where members had accounts muted, banned, and ranks demoted. You yourself ended up sending intimidating emails (see one full email below) to a citizen in your state who posted something on a public forum. Rob, while we are at it, can you tell me why 2 full paid accounts of mine were muted and the ranks demoted? In the email below, you suggested you have the full story and agree with Holger and Harvey. Are you as dishonest as Harvey?

I have been a computer chess hobbyist for nearly 30 years, but I have never seen anything like this place. Although, aware of the TalkChess forum for many years only a few days ago did I make my first post here. Dr. Wael Deeb had posted a few words I had written over at the Rybka forum, and I wished to make some clarifications.

While over here I happened to notice a post by an American player who is known to me, Franklin T. Seeing that he was complaining about receiving a suspension on the PlayChess server and having witnessed the incident, I spoke on his behalf. I did use some colorful language (not vulgar or crude) but apparently politically inappropriate. (my entire post was removed because one word was deemed objectionable) What I did not expect was to receive threatening emails in response to what I wrote.

This is an example: (but not the only one)

From: the_referee@xxxxx.net
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:37 PM
To: kevinfrayer@xxxxx.net
Cc: Lieske, Holger ; Williamson, Harvey
Subject: Your Talkchess Post re: Franklin T.

Kevin,

I have read (and saved) your post from earlier on Talkchess.com (that is now deleted) regarding Holger and Frankin T. Btw, don't ask me how or why it was deleted as I have no clue, except to say, your insults of Holger were unwarranted and way, way "beyond the pale."

Let me also say you do not have a complete understanding of this incident. Were you here every day maybe you would. So it is very inappropriate for you to stick your nose in some incident where it does not belong, as you do not have all the facts.
If you wanted "the simple truth" you could have had that. No... instead you wish to make vile criticisms.

Just as you have insulted Holger, you have insulted myself and Harvey, as I fully support and agree with Holger's actions (and I dare say Harvey would be in full agreement too).
The sooner you realize you have the paying privilege to enter a place of business, and treat that privilege just as you would if you were a guest in someone else’s home, the better off you will be.

And just to be sure, you say at the end of that post, "Have no allusions, an organized resistance is emerging in the engine room." Is this some kind of threat? As an American, you should not find it hard to come to terms with Computer Tampering is a violation the Indiana State and the U.S. Federal Criminal Codes.

Regards,
Rob Osborne

After receiving several intimidating communications like this, I ask Steve B. a moderator here at TalkChess to please delete my account as well as my post for reasons of my personal security. After 24 hours this has still not been done.

I will not respond to any comments expressed about this post and this is in fact the last time I will speak on this forum. Thank you all and if I did offend anyone by alluding to foot apparel worn in the 1930s I apologize.

Put in context, Rob is also a police officer (or former) in that State where Kevin resides.

[Chris Whittington]

Read it all and what can I say...a little self humility never hurts.

No doubt that Harvey was an amazing prick at this dinner party when Cock presumably casually mentioned in an aside that he was using a crack. Nevertheless, he's kind of right. Moral high road and all that.

I thought I was quite reserved and still paid more that two thirds of the bill for the 3 of us

This is the comment that leads one to imagine there's more to the story than is being told. Why on earth would you pay two thirds of the bill when you are at a restaurant with a man and his wife? Him paying 100%, you paying 100%, going Dutch where you pay 50%, or you pay 33% representing one person, all have some sort of logic, but you paying 2/3rds is not immediately explicable. It is also relatively inexplicable how an employee (HW) who says he receives not one penny from HIARCS is paying for a trip to the Netherlands plus hotels plus taking out (or part taking out) people to expensive Michelin restaurants. Not easy to get out of one of those places with an evening meal and wine (pretty much obligatory at that level and somewhat pointless without) without damage of 200 to 250 euros per head, a lot of money for an employee and usually reserved for business guys or senior management or board level expense accounts. And why a Michelin? Trying to impress?

Seems to me there was something else going on in that restaurant and that feeling is boosted by the subsequent intervention of Amir Ban and David Levy, never ones to miss a business opportunity.

Boosted also by the fact that the whole sorry affair ought really to be resolved. As I read it, HW (not HIARCS but an operator btw) was banned by the CVSN after the tournament and had now been unbanned. Cock has made what most people would regard as an acceptable retraction and HW has offered an acceptable apology for the restaurant behaviour. It's all a bit dumb but understandable on the basis that we all screw up now and then. The apologies and retractions are in without heavy loss of face. But, HW, seemingly with some backing, demands an extra apology from Cock and threatens him with campaign to remove him from CSVN if he doesn't get it. Predictably, Cock will stand at this point, and you're locked, somewhat impotently, in war. Further evidence that something else is going on.

So, my question, what is the two thirds about? Your money or somebody elses? Why two thirds?

[kingliveson]

Furthermore Rob, do you support the following behavior depicted by Holger Lieske?:

Gentlemen:


I have had my chat muted on the PlayChess server. Also my evaluations on my profile were at the same time trashed by this unidentified SYSOP.

As I was kibitzing a game that Overpoint was playing this happened. I had not said anything.

Kibitzbot: you are the guy calling me names?

Kibitzbot: "poor english" and so on?

->Kibitzbot: all depends..who you are?

Kibitzbot: you know who I am

->Kibitzbot: I do not

->Kibitzbot: tell me

Kibitzbot: i dont want you chat here

Kibitzbot: it is enough if you do on talkchess

Tournament invitation from Davide Benedetto in room 'Tornei > Stanza privata 3': 1+0 6 rounds start in 3 min!!! applause for winner

->Kibitzbot: lets talk on Skype

Kibitzbot: no, Sir

Kibitzbot: I will not waste my time with you

->Kibitzbot: then go away

Formula Reject: Rated 5m + 0s from Tom67

Kibitzbot: okay.

White Queen is here (Engine Room)

Don Juan is here (Engine Room)

Kibitzbot: but you wont chat here anymore.

->Kibitzbot: O

The Viper is here (Engine Room)

Formula Reject: Rated 5m + 0s from Evildutch

->Kibitzbot: we will see about that

A ChessBase employee (who would not identify himself) has apparently retaliated against me for speaking out on a forum out side of PlayChess.

Best Regards:

Kevin Frayer:

Kibitzbot = Holger Lieske