POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

General discussion about computer chess...

Is Houdini A Cloned Program??

Yes
25
34%
No
49
66%
 
Total votes: 74

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Dr. Ivannik
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Dr. Ivannik » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:39 pm

slobo wrote:
Dr. Ivannik wrote:I sit here in my Moscow apartment sipping my Stolichnaya vodka and sweltering in the heat as I analyze a old Rudolf Spielmann game full of speculative sacrifices. I have engines in front of me that can tactically get to the heart of the chess problem and show me resources that my comrades before me could not have seen years ago. I feel fortunate to have these chess engines of today and do not care where or who or what they are. As I read these posts I wonder if anyone uses these engines for their original purpose? All this silly debate as to their legality and on and on I wonder why does one care?? Enjoy all the engines and yes I'll have another on the rocks.

Thank you

Dr. Ivannik
Nice observation, but
this world have more than one dimention. We can enjoy many of them at the same time.
Slobo I admit I been drinking but I swear this is what I was trying to convey.

Thank you

Dr. Ivannik

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kingliveson
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by kingliveson » Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:53 am

lmader wrote:
Chan Rasjid wrote:
hyatt wrote:"Clone" is an exact copy of a program. Usually produced by taking a .exe file (windows) and using a debugger to change key strings such as the program name, so that its origin will remain hidden. This has been done many times, particularly on chess servers.

"Derivative" is a modified copy, but starts from source rather than from executable. This makes it possible to actually change parts. Some change a lot. Some change so little that it might actually qualify as a "clone".
The usual meaning of a clone in genetics is the clone has a direct material link (genes) traceable to an ancestor. In chess engines, it means a form of copying that is not acceptable to the computer chess community - basically copying from the executable/binaries or from cut_and_paste from the source codes. As long as an author writes the codes himself, whether in the same programming language or in another language, it is not a clone - there is no direct material link traceable to another as an ancestor.

Derivative implies a substantial copying of ideas to the point that the derivative behaves closely to that of the other engine it imitates. Robert Houdart seems to have admitted Houdini is a form of Ippo* derivative.

Rasjid.
If I have read this correctly, Rasjid's definition of derivative is different than Dr. Hyatt's: Rasjid's says derivatives copy only ideas, Dr. Hyatt's says derivatives copy actual code. I think Dr.Hyatt's definition is correct. I would say that copying only ideas, no code, does not make for a derivative. Anyone care to weigh in?
Prof. Hyatt is correct in this case. But when someone says clone, immediately, illegal copy comes to mind. Of course, not that a derivative can't be illegal.

slobo wrote: You shoud have consulted the correct terminology before starting your poll.
Houdini is not a clone, but
it is an engine based on Robbolito; probably more than Rybka (is based) on Fruit.
I have to agree here that had Sean used proper description (for example, "do you think Houdini is based on Ippolit?"), the response might have been different. People are tired of clone/counter accusations.
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen

BTO7
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by BTO7 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:30 am

I have to agree here that had Sean used proper description (for example, "do you think Houdini is based on Ippolit?"), the response might have been different. People are tired of clone/counter accusations.
This just goes to show you why Sean is just trying to start some crap ....because Robert already said that at his site. Its in black and white it has to do with Ippo nothing nobody didn't already know...so he chose clone just to be a ass ..what a jerk. He never had a point to this post other then to try to stir up some controversy when there is none. Its guys like this the forums can do with out..troll trouble makers. This post is a joke like the creator :lol:

Regards
BT

Chan Rasjid
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Chan Rasjid » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:22 pm

I think I made a mistake; Bob Hyatt's definition of clones and derivatives should be appropriate:-
"clone" - don't talk about it, a low class job; takes the binary and changes a few strings with a debugger. The only commendable thing about the cloner is he knows how to use a debugger to change things.
"derivative" - starts with the source codes, make changes and then compile into a program.

So Houdini is neither of the above; Robert Houdart's name is completely cleared.

Hail To Firebird 1.4 !

Rasjid.

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Dr.Wael Deeb
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Dr.Wael Deeb » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:59 pm

Chan Rasjid wrote:I think I made a mistake; Bob Hyatt's definition of clones and derivatives should be appropriate:-
"clone" - don't talk about it, a low class job; takes the binary and changes a few strings with a debugger. The only commendable thing about the cloner is he knows how to use a debugger to change things.
"derivative" - starts with the source codes, make changes and then compile into a program.

So Houdini is neither of the above; Robert Houdart's name is completely cleared.

Hail To Firebird 1.4 !

Rasjid.
It's coming brother and it will take no prisoners 8-)
Dr.D

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Matthias Gemuh
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Matthias Gemuh » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:04 pm

Chan Rasjid wrote: "clone" - don't talk about it, a low class job; takes the binary and changes a few strings with a debugger. The only commendable thing about the cloner is he knows how to use a debugger to change things.
...
Rasjid.
Most cloners use a simple hex editor.
Aided by engines, GMs can be very strong.
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Eduard Nemeth
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Eduard Nemeth » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:41 pm

In my opinion the roots of Houdini are probably from derivative engines. But derivatives is not clone! The Question "Clone or not Clone" is also (in my opinion) wrong here.

Next: In my own tests I found out, that Houdini (1.03a) has a different valuation than Rybka 3 and Rybka 4.

Next: Evaluations of Houdini in the endgames are much more different to Rybka 3 and 4 and Ivanhoe!

Next: The Search of Houdini is also different from Rybka and IvanHoe! The search of Houdini is much faster.

ED.
Peace be with you!

Mark Young
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by Mark Young » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:40 am

Eduard Nemeth wrote:In my opinion the roots of Houdini are probably from derivative engines. But derivatives is not clone! The Question "Clone or not Clone" is also (in my opinion) wrong here.

Next: In my own tests I found out, that Houdini (1.03a) has a different valuation than Rybka 3 and Rybka 4.

Next: Evaluations of Houdini in the endgames are much more different to Rybka 3 and 4 and Ivanhoe!

Next: The Search of Houdini is also different from Rybka and IvanHoe! The search of Houdini is much faster.

ED.

I agree with your findings. My testing showed the same. Not sure what Houdini is, but it is clearly not a simple copy and paste Clone as some would like us to believe. Speed of search, and endgame play are clearly better then the Rybka programs.

sowdech
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by sowdech » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:45 pm

Probably most engines are derivatives to some extent at least, including of course Rybka. Why reinvent the wheel when open source engines like Stockfish are readily available for reference? And unlike Rybka, Houdini is free, stronger and doesn't have a single processor version. Enjoy!

MichaelIsGreat
Posts: 44
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Re: POLL: Whether Houdini Is A Clone?

Post by MichaelIsGreat » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:04 pm

Hello to All,

Honestly, there is something really wrong with people's thinking concerning Rybka 4 with respect especially to Houdini! Rybka has been, for years, the best chess engine around by a wide margin. Therefore, goes the current thinking of most people, any chess engine that would be better than Rybka should be a clone or should have borrowed heavily from Rybka's source code! This thinking is plain wrong and it is certainly not logical at all!

It is true that to create a strong chess engine is not for the faint of heart, it is really hard. But, as Robert Houdart has shown with Houdini, it is still possible. Robert Houdart, the gifted Belgian programmer of Houdini, is a programmer by trade and he has programmed chess engines for many years without distributing his previous attempts. When he managed to produce a strong chess engine that is better than Rybka 4, he decided to distribute it freely to all. Oh, I hear some of you say, this must be a clone!! LOL :roll:

Robert Houdart, on his web site at http://www.cruxis.com/chess/houdini.htm , has the honesty of praising those who inspired him at improving his previous chess engine efforts. He says:
"Without many ideas from the open source chess engines Ippolit/Robbolito, Stockfish and Crafty, Houdini would not nearly be as strong as it is now.".
Where did he find his inspirations? From open source chess engines!! Therefore, not from illegal or dishonest means!

Yes, many praises to Robert Houdart for creating the strongest chess engine in the world and making it available to all for free. The guy is definitively gifted at programming, that is the only conclusion that you should deduce from the results obtained by Houdini 1.5 on reliable chess engine rating lists.


By the way, here are reliable chess engine rating lists:
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I suggest four reliable and trustworthy chess engines rating lists. Reliable and trustworthy because they compile their chess engines rating lists honestly and they do not have a hidden agenda of wanting to avoid testing particular strong chess engines in order to keep their pet engines at the top!

1) The TCEC (Thoresen Chess Engines Competition) web site (40 MOVES IN 100 MIN+NEXT 20 MOVES IN 50 MIN+20 MIN FOR THE REST+10 S ADDED PER MOVE AT THIS LAST TIME CONTROL; 6 CORES; TABLEBASES USED; PONDER OFF; HASH USED; ALL OPENING MOVES ARE RANDOMLY FETCHED FROM A PGN FILE WHICH CONTAINS 200.810 DIFFERENT OPENINGS AND THEY ARE ALL FIXED TO 12 MOVES / 24 PLIES) at http://www.tcec-chess.org/
This site is outstanding! It is not a chess engine rating list per se but it should give you a very good idea of which chess engines are currently the best, as it does several tournaments with the best chess engines available.
Check the listing and the rating of the chess engines that have played in each category (Elite Match, Division I, Division II, and Division III) and you should have a very good idea which chess engines are currently the best in each category. Division I being a stronger category than Division III and the Elite Match being a match between the current top two chess engines in the world (in 2011, Houdini 1.5 is the best first and Rybka 4.0 is a worthy second).
Highly recommended.
In particular, check the Elite Match between Houdini 1.5a and Rybka 4.0 (that is for the top two chess engines in the world). Very interesting games have been played so far.

2) The G/90mins Ratings (90 MIN TO PLAY ALL THEIR MOVES; 2 CORES; TABLEBASES USED; PONDER ON; HASH USED; OWN OPENING BOOK USED) at http://www.brinan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ ... atings.htm
This web site is outstanding!
Visit in particular the other links on this web site. Highly recommended.

3) The IPON-Rating-List (5 MIN/GAME+3 S/MOVE; 1 CORE; TABLEBASES USED; PONDER ON; HASH USED; 50 DIFFERENT OPENING POSITIONS [NO BOOKS] ) at http://www.inwoba.de/
For those more interested at how chess engines perform at playing quick games.

4) The SWCR Rating (40 MOVES IN 10 MIN; 1 CORE; TABLEBASES USED; PONDER ON; HASH USED; RANDOM OPENING BOOKS USED) at http://www.amateurschach.de/
Again, for those more interested at how chess engines perform at playing quick games.


WARNING:
Any chess engine rating list that avoids including the strongest chess engines (in particular Houdini 1.5!!) has basically a hidden agenda of wanting to avoid dethroning their pet chess engines (very often Rybka 4)!
Unfortunately, for quite some time, the CCRL and the CEGT chess engines rating lists have had a not-anymore-hidden agenda of favoring their pet chess engines by avoiding testing stronger chess engines!! In such a case, you know that these chess engines rating lists are completely unreliable and nothing less than dishonest!! Avoid them at all costs!!
In the near future, the CCRL and the CEGT chess engines rating lists will probably be forced to add the best current chess engine in the world, Houdini 1.5, to their rating lists to avoid being ridiculed any further by those who complained about their dishonest way of choosing which chess engines to test in their rating lists and which to purposefully avoid testing!
By carefully selecting dishonestly which chess engines to test and especially which ones to avoid testing (the stronger ones!), one could create completely bogus chess engines rating lists that are completely unreliable, with the only goal of keeping at the top someone's pet chess engines that have been dethroned by stronger and more recent chess engines!! Keep that in mind when you decide which chess engines rating lists to visit regularly!
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Best Regards to All
MichaelIsGreat

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