Who would prevail? - Rybka or cloners?

[Gerold]

at the end of the day rybka is a consumer product on the market for sale.where do copyright laws come into this, am i led to believe the workings of a chess engine cant be copyrighted,maybe this clone issue hasn't fell on the right desk yet, because from where I'm sitting cloning someone else's product/design is illegal

Number 1. i don't know if Vas has a copyright on Rybka.
Number2. It has to be proven that it is a clone.
Number3. It takes money to sue and also there is the chance of a counter action.
Number4. Different countries have diff. laws regarding copyright.
Number5. If he brings court action who will he charge with the crime.
Number6. Disregarding all this and if he would win the court case how would he collect the damages.
Number 7 This is just a few things to look at before court action is worth while.

[kingliveson]

I'm curious to see if this ever gets to court. Would Rybka developers be able to get a court injunction to prevent ISPs from allowing their servers to host websites that allow people to get the alleged clones? To do this I'm guessing there'd have to be a case brought in by Rybka's developers to prove their contention that the clones are illegally obtained versions of Rybka code.

Would a judge be able to make the distinction between Rybka getting "ideas" from other engines and engines using code snippets from other engines? In other words would a judge be able to distinguish between what a "clone" is and what a "derivative" is?

In my opinion such a case could have wide ranging impact on the term "clone" and what constitutes as an "original" chess engine. It could even impact the development of open source code. Any thoughts on this?

The cloners have already won. Just look how far Rybka has come. Rybka was at the bottom of the ratings list (around 2000 ELO), until mouth watering and very delicious open source Peach Fruit code was released -- then all of sudden, Rybka took a massive ELO jump. You will have to do your own research to see if my statement holds true.

Just a reminder:

Yes, the publication of Fruit 2.1 was huge. Look at how many engines took a massive jump in its wake: Rybka, Hiarcs, Fritz, Zappa, Spike, List, and so on. I went through the Fruit 2.1 source code forwards and backwards and took many things.

It is a bit of a pity that Rybka won't make the same contribution to the computer chess community, but at the moment I must also think about protecting my secrets. It's the eternal struggle for a computer chess programmer.

But of course, there is now a new open source program that has overtaken the cloners yet again.

[Hood]

To be the clone or not to be ? It is the question.

[Hagen]

OMG...if that quote from Vas is legit...there's no way he could possibly win in court. That comment is killer. That is the most explicit comment I've ever seen regarding Vas and Fruit ever. How come I've never seen this comment he made before? Can anybody here verify that quote really is from Vas?!

[Gerold]

OMG...if that quote from Vas is legit...there's no way he could possibly win in court. That comment is killer. That is the most explicit comment I've ever seen regarding Vas and Fruit ever. How come I've never seen this comment he made before? Can anybody here verify that quote really is from Vas?!

He used to be a member and post here before he opened his own forum. Yes i think the quote above is what he said.

[Uly]

The quote is real, but there's nothing bad about taking ideas (taken out of context it would seem as if Vas copied and pasted code).

[Gerold]

OMG...if that quote from Vas is legit...there's no way he could possibly win in court. That comment is killer. That is the most explicit comment I've ever seen regarding Vas and Fruit ever. How come I've never seen this comment he made before? Can anybody here verify that quote really is from Vas?!

He used to be a member and post here before he opened his own forum. Yes i think the quote above is what he said.

To correct the above. He used to post at Talkchess before he opened his own forum.

[Hagen]

The quote is real, but there's nothing bad about taking ideas (taken out of context it would seem as if Vas copied and pasted code).

Yes, but even if we take his comment with a grain of salt...the burden of proof suddenly becomes too high for Rybka developers to prove their code was "reverse engineered" because the same comment could be used by the Decembrists if they ever took the stand. There would be no way a court could determine which engine is truly original and not a derivative of a known engine.

That comment by Vas is the 600 lb gorilla in any such case against the Decembrists and could even boomerang against Rybka could it be proved Vas used "ideas" from the GPL code to improve Rybka. I think there was a case a while back involving Microsoft being brought to court for using GPL open source code in Windows Server. Microsoft was forced to acknowledge they used open source code and had to drop the GPL code from Windows Server if my memory is correct. I could be wrong about the exact status of that case, though.

[kingliveson]

Of course there is nothing wrong with taking ideas. It just so happens Rybka was at bottom of the table until Fruit source code was published.

Cross Table

No  Name                Feder Rtg   1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9

1.  Hiarcs,                   2812 28:W 16:W 10:L 20:D 34:W 13:W 15:W  9:W  3:D
2.  Junior,                   2701 29:D  7:W 14:W  5:L 38:W 19:W 16:W  3:D  9:D
3.  Crafty,                   2607 30:W 20:W 12:W 10:D  8:W  9:W 21:D  2:D  1:D
4.  Rebel 12,                 2600 31:W 19:W  9:L 21:L 33:W 25:W  5:L  7:W 40:L
5.  Ruffian,                  2595 32:W 22:D 34:W  2:W  9:L 20:W  4:W 21:W 10:L
6.  Quark,                    2586 33:W 21:D 15:D 19:L 36:W 31:L 26:W 24:W 14:L
7.  Arasan,                   2557 34:L  2:L 48:W 36:L 45:W 39:W 32:W  4:L 31:W
8.  Searcher,                 2532 35:W 23:W 13:W  9:L  3:L 40:D 38:W 10:L 16:W
9.  Yace,                     2531 36:W 26:W  4:W  8:W  5:W  3:L 10:D  1:L  2:D
10. Zappa,                    2530 37:W 27:W  1:W  3:D 21:L 11:W  9:D  8:W  5:W
11. Falcon,                   2500 38:W 34:D 22:D 40:W 19:D 10:L 23:L 28:W 51:L
12. Pepito,                   2500 39:W 45:W  3:L 23:L 37:D 51:L 33:D 35:W 36:W
13. Green Light Chess,        2495 40:W 44:W  8:L 22:W 23:W  1:L 51:D 20:L 26:W
14. Comet B68,                2489 41:W 51:W  2:L 29:D 15:L 37:W 31:D 25:W  6:W
15. King of Kings,            2479 42:W 52:D  6:D 38:D 14:W 22:W  1:L 51:W 23:W
16. Post Modernist,           2471 43:W  1:L 33:W 51:W 31:W 21:D  2:L 40:D  8:L
17. Chezzz,                   2468 44:L 40:L 54:W 42:L 46:W 38:L 45:W 34:D 28:W
18. Ikarus,                   2466 45:L 29:D 43:W 39:D 40:L 36:L 41:L   :    :
19. The Baron,                2465 46:W  4:L 32:W  6:W 11:D  2:L 40:L 27:W 29:L
20. Pharaon,                  2450 47:W  3:L 37:W  1:D 29:W  5:L 42:W 13:W 21:D
21. Thinker 4.5a,             2450 48:W  6:D 52:W  4:W 10:W 16:D  3:D  5:L 20:D
22. WildCat,                  2425 49:W  5:D 11:D 13:L 39:W 15:L 27:D 29:L 37:W
23. XiniX,                    2420 50:W  8:L 36:W 12:W 13:L 42:D 11:W 31:W 15:L
24. OliThink,                 2400 51:L 39:L 47:W 35:W 42:L 41:W 36:W  6:L 33:L
25. BlackBishop,              2400 52:L 42:W 38:L 44:W 50:W  4:L 34:W 14:L 32:W
26. SpiderChess,              2396 53:W  9:L 39:D 31:L 52:W 29:W  6:L 38:W 13:L
27. Frenzee,                  2380 54:W 10:L 40:L 45:D 28:W 34:D 22:D 19:L 38:L
28. Djinn,                    2378  1:L 41:D 51:L 47:W 27:L 44:W 37:W 11:L 17:L
29. Movei,                    2367  2:D 18:D 44:W 14:D 20:L 26:L 50:W 22:W 19:W
30. messchess,                2367  3:L 43:D 35:D 37:L 41:L 52:W 47:W 36:L 46:L
31. Amateur,                  2361  4:L 46:W 45:W 26:W 16:L  6:W 14:D 23:L  7:L
32. Averno,                   2354  5:L 47:W 19:L 41:W 51:L 49:W  7:L 42:W 25:L
33. Bodo,                     2351  6:L 48:W 16:L 46:W  4:L 50:D 12:D 39:W 24:W
34. Butcher,                  2337  7:W 11:D  5:L 52:W  1:L 27:D 25:L 17:D 42:L
35. Dorky 4.0,                2324  8:L 50:D 30:D 24:L 44:D 45:D 46:W 12:L 43:W
36. Chepla,                   2323  9:L 49:W 23:L  7:W  6:L 18:W 24:L 30:W 12:L
37. Hossa,                    2317 10:L 54:W 20:L 30:W 12:D 14:L 28:L 50:W 22:L
38. Amyan,                    2292 11:L 53:W 25:W 15:D  2:L 17:W  8:L 26:L 27:W
39. Alarm,                    2290 12:L 24:W 26:D 18:D 22:L  7:L 49:W 33:L 52:L
40. Bringer 1.9,              2283 13:L 17:W 27:W 11:L 18:W  8:D 19:W 16:D  4:W
41. Chompster,                2274 14:L 28:D 50:D 32:L 30:W 24:L 18:L   :    :
42. Tao 5.6,                  2274 15:L 25:L 49:W 17:W 24:W 23:D 20:L 32:L 34:W
43. Tinker,                   2232 16:L 30:D 18:L 50:L 53:D 46:L 54:W 47:W 35:L
44. Rascal,                   2225 17:W 13:L 29:L 25:L 35:D 28:L 53:W 52:D 49:W
45. Nullmover,                2213 18:W 12:L 31:L 27:D  7:L 35:D 17:L 49:L 53:D
46. Chiron,                   2200 19:L 31:L 53:W 33:L 17:L 43:W 35:L 48:W 30:W
47. SEE,                      2196 20:L 32:L 24:L 28:L 54:W 53:W 30:L 43:L 48:D
48. Noonian Chess,            2128 21:L 33:L  7:L 53:D 49:L 54:W 52:L 46:L 47:D
49. 31337/Celes,              2127 22:L 36:L 42:L 54:W 48:W 32:L 39:L 45:W 44:L
50. Cheetah,                  2104 23:L 35:D 41:D 43:W 25:L 33:D 29:L 37:L 54:W
51. Jonny 2.54,               2075 24:W 14:L 28:W 16:L 32:W 12:W 13:D 15:L 11:W
52. MatadorX,                 2000 25:W 15:D 21:L 34:L 26:L 30:L 48:W 44:D 39:W
53. Rybka,                    2000 26:L 38:L 46:L 48:D 43:D 47:L 44:L 54:W 45:D
54. Tohno,                    1800 27:L 37:L 17:L 49:L 47:L 48:L 43:L 53:L 50:L

And the Original Cloner Award goes to...

[hyatt]

at the end of the day rybka is a consumer product on the market for sale.where do copyright laws come into this, am i led to believe the workings of a chess engine cant be copyrighted,maybe this clone issue hasn't fell on the right desk yet, because from where I'm sitting cloning someone else's product/design is illegal

Number 1. i don't know if Vas has a copyright on Rybka.
Number2. It has to be proven that it is a clone.
Number3. It takes money to sue and also there is the chance of a counter action.
Number4. Different countries have diff. laws regarding copyright.
Number5. If he brings court action who will he charge with the crime.
Number6. Disregarding all this and if he would win the court case how would he collect the damages.
Number 7 This is just a few things to look at before court action is worth while.

For the record, if you write something, you _automatically_ own the copyright unless you explicitly choose to make it public.

The one advantage to court action is that you _can_ find out the real names. You can start the suit with an "unnamed conspirators" group, and then use the subpoena power of the court to compel an ISP to identify the real person behind an anonymous account. That can certainly be problematic as many countries will refuse to help, adding to the cost of trying to enforce the subpoenas...

Whether you win or not is a gamble. If you win, whether you will ever see a cent from the win is a gamble. But to start the process you have to spend cold, hard case on an attorney and filing fees, etc. And that is more than a gamble since it costs you real money you have a low probability of ever getting back.