SedatChess

[OrgZ]

https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... nn-vs-book
look nnue number 1 book

My point exactly. nnue is a big FACTOR on these book tournaments.

[Sedat Canbaz]

I will have to go with no NNUE.
We are testing the book not the engine strength.
If its not nnue then the book with moves in many positions has advantage bcz if there's nnue now the book without moves will be saved.

Although games with nnue have quality but we don't really get to see the full performance of the book. The engine is doing the work not the book.

Thats my view Mr Sedat

Good points...

What I can add more over these interesting issues,
To call it as 'real' book tournament, plus just in case of
Checking/Testing the real opening book strength, then
Undoubtedly all books have to use NON-NNUE engine/s

BTW, just in case of book tours via Evalfiles...
Then I think that it's not a best way...because
NNUE assistance may help a lot to the weakest, critical opening lines

But I admit also that,
Sometimes is not so bad idea to test books as NNUE enabled as well
You know... more better )

Greetings

[Sedat Canbaz]

https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... nn-vs-book
look nnue number 1 book

My point exactly. nnue is a big FACTOR on these book tournaments.

I think that Cubail member (Mr. Cevdet) is meaning such as
It is better to test the opening books via NNUE assistance

Since he published the Duel, where NNUE was as Winner )

Greetings

[Sedat Canbaz]

Meanwhile, just in case of Book Championship as NNUE enabled,
Then it is not recommended to be used a engine, which produce
Very high draw percentages... e.g such as 98%-99% ...Otherwise,
No much way or meaningless to tune weakest or strongest lines, right?)
If not so clear...because almost all lines are ended such via values: 50%

For this reason (in case of NNUE enabled),
I prefer Rasubfish SC..still super strong. plus less drawish!
And based on tests, produces minus plus 10% less draws...

E.g there some other SF based engines even as without NNUE
Their draws are close or even higher than Raubfish SC NNUE

The main difference,
Raubfish SC is about + 150/+200 Elo stronger than these Drawish engines !

[OrgZ]

Meanwhile, just in case of Book Championship as NNUE enabled,
Then it is not recommended to be used a engine, which produce
Very high draw percentages... e.g such as 98%-99% ...Otherwise,
No much way or meaningless to tune weakest or strongest lines, right?)
If not so clear...because almost all lines are ended such via values: 50%

For this reason (in case of NNUE enabled),
I prefer Rasubfish SC..still super strong. plus less drawish!
And based on tests, produces minus plus 10% less draws...

E.g there some other SF based engines even as without NNUE
Their draws are close or even higher than Raubfish SC NNUE

The main difference,
Raubfish SC is about + 150/+200 Elo stronger than these Drawish engines !

that engine gives some exaggerated evaluations on positions . even if its a draw it will read +0.75 or +1.12 or +2.3. i think its this reason that it fights to win in drawen positions.
i have some games of it vs Raid v2.73 it was a war of blood but Raubfisch due to being old was obliterate.

Score of Raid v2.73 vs Raubfisch X48c3_nn_sl-avx2: 46 - 19 - 135 [0.568]
... Raid v2.73 playing White: 41 - 7 - 52 [0.670] 100
... Raid v2.73 playing Black: 5 - 12 - 83 [0.465] 100
... White vs Black: 53 - 12 - 135 [0.603] 200
Elo difference: 47.2 +/- 27.2, LOS: 100.0 %, DrawRatio: 67.5 %
200 of 200 games finished.

Thats what happened. unfortunatly am using the games to add to my book hence i cant produce the pgn. just to keep my book unique from the rest

[Sedat Canbaz]

Meanwhile, just in case of Book Championship as NNUE enabled,
Then it is not recommended to be used a engine, which produce
Very high draw percentages... e.g such as 98%-99% ...Otherwise,
No much way or meaningless to tune weakest or strongest lines, right?)
If not so clear...because almost all lines are ended such via values: 50%

For this reason (in case of NNUE enabled),
I prefer Rasubfish SC..still super strong. plus less drawish!
And based on tests, produces minus plus 10% less draws...

E.g there some other SF based engines even as without NNUE
Their draws are close or even higher than Raubfish SC NNUE

The main difference,
Raubfish SC is about + 150/+200 Elo stronger than these Drawish engines !

that engine gives some exaggerated evaluations on positions . even if its a draw it will read +0.75 or +1.12 or +2.3. i think its this reason that it fights to win in drawen positions.
i have some games of it vs Raid v2.73 it was a war of blood but Raubfisch due to being old was obliterate.

Score of Raid v2.73 vs Raubfisch X48c3_nn_sl-avx2: 46 - 19 - 135 [0.568]
... Raid v2.73 playing White: 41 - 7 - 52 [0.670] 100
... Raid v2.73 playing Black: 5 - 12 - 83 [0.465] 100
... White vs Black: 53 - 12 - 135 [0.603] 200
Elo difference: 47.2 +/- 27.2, LOS: 100.0 %, DrawRatio: 67.5 %
200 of 200 games finished.

Thats what happened. unfortunatly am using the games to add to my book hence i cant produce the pgn. just to keep my book unique from the rest

Thanks for the test...

However, your test is not clear...rather I'd say a mystery )
Reason, no any info over test cond. ...exc. names and results ))

But however, according to my experience,
It seems you used again weak suite openings, right ?
Because via Strong suite..no way to see these draw numbers!!
Exc. very likely with ultra fast time controls, such as 5 sec / game

Btw, I tested Raubfish SC in recent tours as well
And Raubfish scored just about 5 to 15 Elo less:
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... s-37-blitz
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... nnue-cs-37
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... nnue-cs-36

In same time that means:
SF improvement is almost dead.. since 2 years !!
Exc. we can see some improvements via weaker lines...
But via strong openings... no much Elo gain for sure!
At least all my recent tours indicates this...

By the way, who care much about these weak opening suites?
At least these handicapped games are not so useful for my side...
If not so clear...just do not come with these critical lines in SCCT tours )
I assume these kind of books will be down and down...fighting for last places!


Greetings

[OrgZ]

TC: 3+3.60

Raid exp OFF

Opening suite: adrian Oliver does tests yes. so i created my test suite from some of the games which he did. the openings correspond to openings which are found in bin books. so their normal strong openings. nothing else was added on the engines.

[OrgZ]

Mr Sedat why would i add low time control games to my book . all book games that i add are from TC 3+2 nothing less

[Sedat Canbaz]

TC: 3+3.60

Raid exp OFF

Opening suite: adrian Oliver does tests yes. so i created my test suite from some of the games which he did. the openings correspond to openings which are found in bin books. so their normal strong openings. nothing else was added on the engines.

Interesting...and Congrats!

Because via NNUE 3700+ to see such low draw ratio: 67.5 %
Never seen before...sure I mean if testings via strong openings...
And of course, if we use and run tour with optimal test conditions too )

On other hand,
I wonder...Oliprog tests are usually close to 95-99% draws
That's why ...how did you manage ... ?)

Btw, can you share please your suite ?
And the played 200 games as well...

Later I may try tıo test and use your suite under
SCCT conditions as well....

Greetings

[Sedat Canbaz]

Mr Sedat why would i add low time control games to my book . all book games that i add are from TC 3+2 nothing less

Good... but actually it all depends...

For examples,
My produced Bullet games can be counted as Blitz on my older machines..
Or as other example, the played Blitz games can be counted as Rapid etc. e.g
2x EPYC 7B12 128 Cores/256 threads is one of fastest computers for chess...

If still not so clear,
You can check Bullet's power and your engine is another Hercules for sure :
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... gth-test-4
https://sites.google.com/site/computers ... testings-3

Greetings