CSTAL again....

[Fernando]

As Chris W. is part of this forum, it is adequate to un bury again the old CSTAL conversation. I know, we know, it is not anymore CW property, but I wonder if this gentleman has not been tempted to create an UCi engine along the lines of his magnificent attacking old program
Chris?


Fern

[yanquis1972]

this would be nice. i could maybe get hash working again and finally clear the cstal icon off my desktop.

[Sean Evans]

Hi group,

I am sure ChrisW could pick up CSTal for a song

Cordially,

Sean Evans

[Swaminathan]

As Chris W. is part of this forum, it is adequate to un bury again the old CSTAL conversation. I know, we know, it is not anymore CW property, but I wonder if this gentleman has not been tempted to create an UCi engine along the lines of his magnificent attacking old program
Chris?


Fern

I thought he doesn't have sources to CS Tal and gave them away to the new owners or something. If anything it would be good to see a new improved derivative of Stockfish or Glaurung from him

[Robert Flesher]

I 100% agree, I'd pay top dollar for a MP UCI version of Chesstal II. Chris make it happen!!

[Chris Whittington]

As Chris W. is part of this forum, it is adequate to un bury again the old CSTAL conversation. I know, we know, it is not anymore CW property, but I wonder if this gentleman has not been tempted to create an UCi engine along the lines of his magnificent attacking old program
Chris?


Fern

well, I don't need to work anymore so it would have to be out of love for the computer chess community and I only really work on computer chess programming alongside talking about it on the forums (as you can probably remember from many years ago) - the discussing and the doing are mutually reinforcing parts of the process for me. so, first problem is that the forums have degenerated now into fan groups arguing about programs rather than programmers discussing about them. second problem is that successful programmers, especially commercial ones who also make noises on forums, attract stalkers and often a great deal of hate posts. If you're in the business you have to decide whether to invest energy and stress in fighting that (as Bob does), or simply not be on forums at all (think of all the programmers who are totally silent and always have been, it's many, no?), or make your own forum and stay behind the wall. It has also been fairly clearly demonstrated to me that the majority want bean counters anyway. So, while basically many people are pleasant and constructive there are far too many whose business it is to dole out stress and hatred and I don't need that, at all. Effectively, why should I, when I've a zillion productive stress-free things to do instead. Here is France after all CSTal effectively died as a project when I quit the forums in April 1998.

[Dayffd]

I would also buy CSTal as a uci (preferable) or wb engine to participate in my tournaments. I am not interested in "bean counting", assuming that means nps and other, similar, information. Another engine I would like to see updated would be Nimzo, but that one also is no longer worked on that I am aware of since Mr. Donninger has been involved with other projects. I do wish CW and Mr. Donninger all the best in their lives.

As Chris W. is part of this forum, it is adequate to un bury again the old CSTAL conversation. I know, we know, it is not anymore CW property, but I wonder if this gentleman has not been tempted to create an UCi engine along the lines of his magnificent attacking old program
Chris?


Fern

well, I don't need to work anymore so it would have to be out of love for the computer chess community and I only really work on computer chess programming alongside talking about it on the forums (as you can probably remember from many years ago) - the discussing and the doing are mutually reinforcing parts of the process for me. so, first problem is that the forums have degenerated now into fan groups arguing about programs rather than programmers discussing about them. second problem is that successful programmers, especially commercial ones who also make noises on forums, attract stalkers and often a great deal of hate posts. If you're in the business you have to decide whether to invest energy and stress in fighting that (as Bob does), or simply not be on forums at all (think of all the programmers who are totally silent and always have been, it's many, no?), or make your own forum and stay behind the wall. It has also been fairly clearly demonstrated to me that the majority want bean counters anyway. So, while basically many people are pleasant and constructive there are far too many whose business it is to dole out stress and hatred and I don't need that, at all. Effectively, why should I, when I've a zillion productive stress-free things to do instead. Here is France after all CSTal effectively died as a project when I quit the forums in April 1998.

or wb

[Fernando]

Well, I already knew what answer Chris was going to give, but you never know if the next time....
I am certain that the era of brute force programs, as many of them are with some sophisticated nuances here and there, is over. People want something different. To begin with, attractive GUI, original GUI. One of the -perhaps childish- reasons I play old CStal I is the GUi with that face making grimaces according the game goes on. MANY other things could be added and in fact I have been in contact with a programmer for a commercial chess program imbued of absolutely new ideas about this. I cannot say if the project will go until completion, but at least there is a beginning.
I understand Chris. I am of his age, around 60, so I know how much tired one becomes after a full life engaged in our vocational or commercial task. Nevertheless, we are not that old not to do something else.
Perhaps Chris could work with me and that other programmer to try something?
Chris: you cant expend all your time in France raising chickens and drinking red wine.

Fern

[Robert Flesher]

As Chris W. is part of this forum, it is adequate to un bury again the old CSTAL conversation. I know, we know, it is not anymore CW property, but I wonder if this gentleman has not been tempted to create an UCi engine along the lines of his magnificent attacking old program
Chris?


Fern

well, I don't need to work anymore so it would have to be out of love for the computer chess community and I only really work on computer chess programming alongside talking about it on the forums (as you can probably remember from many years ago) - the discussing and the doing are mutually reinforcing parts of the process for me. so, first problem is that the forums have degenerated now into fan groups arguing about programs rather than programmers discussing about them. second problem is that successful programmers, especially commercial ones who also make noises on forums, attract stalkers and often a great deal of hate posts. If you're in the business you have to decide whether to invest energy and stress in fighting that (as Bob does), or simply not be on forums at all (think of all the programmers who are totally silent and always have been, it's many, no?), or make your own forum and stay behind the wall. It has also been fairly clearly demonstrated to me that the majority want bean counters anyway. So, while basically many people are pleasant and constructive there are far too many whose business it is to dole out stress and hatred and I don't need that, at all. Effectively, why should I, when I've a zillion productive stress-free things to do instead. Here is France after all CSTal effectively died as a project when I quit the forums in April 1998.

Sad new, but completely understood! Enjoy the rertirement Chris!

[Peter Berger]

I think you are wrong about the assessment of users.

People who run engine lists care about ELO and not necessarily about engine styles. But these are only a small fraction of the "fan boys".

The Tal engine really came close to playing like a strong human master. I only disliked three things strongly which spoilt the impression:

a.) Kg8-k8-g8 - it would do this like in about every third game if given the chance like good old Super Constellation - *dumb computer-moves* destroying every dream about playing a human master

b.) Transformation into pawn endgames ( and other basic endgames) - this is one of the types of positions humans of about 2100 ELO can really evaluate quickly. Tal tried to deal with them with search but it was too slow to understand things as quickly as its otherwise weaker opponent.

c.) No understanding of the concept of a draw - once a dead position was reached it would move around, couldn't take draw offers or accept them , and it would even go as far as doing dumb moves to avoid 50 moves rule or when tablebases kicked in .

Other than that CSTal 2.03 was ( and still is) one of my *very* favourite engines. I ran it in about 2000 games against human masters on ICC , and it was definitely popular and I had a lot of fun watching. It is also one of the few I still have installed on my computers now, when I seized to have a lot of interest in computerchess. And one I like to play against myself at times.

Especially impressive was the opening play without books, dunno how you did that, but Tal was great in thie respect. I can't take a "grandmaster program" strength serioulsy that starts a game against me with 1. Sf3 d5 2. SC3 e6 3. e3 Sf6 4. Lb5+ as do current Craftys .. - although I can't beat them, but I look at their play in disgust .

Peter