ChessBase: A Gross Miscarriage of Justice in Computer Chess

[JcMaTe]

Or are you such a type that will state: I am 100% certain that Vas copied Fruit ?

are you 100% certain that rybka is original work?

[hyatt]

So the board appointed you and others who had already determined the guilt of Vas to run a panel?
5 years of disucssing the guilt of a person is a long time and our brains tend to form connections if repeatedly shown or told the same information over and over again. Intelligence or education does not mean immunity to this sort of brainwashing.
I dont think the board was unbaised if it allowed the panel to form with members who had already determined guilt of a member as its head.

I am sure then the panel was unprejudiced in its approach to the information and discussions that took place then.

ICGA can cast its nets as far as it wants to find evidence of bias? That is like digging back to grade school and saying you got in a playground fight in 5th grade so this proves your a bully and violent.

I give you that Vas could clear things up by giving his code to someone to compare and resolve the issue but with the language used by many of his accusers and the subsequent investigation led by them I don't blame him for declining.

As a point of fact we are ALWAYS bias, I had a professor long ago say that if we find something we feel is totally unbiased it is only because we have the same bias. This is exactly why we have rules to follow during investigations.

Maybe the blame should be placed on the Board for not insisting on another panel to led by members who presumed Vas innocence to send in a counter report.

As far as I can see in all the discussions there is a lot of name calling and provocation that leads me to think that the result of the panel and subsequent board was at the very least biased in its decision making process.

I am reminded of the Famous Monty Python Witch trial scene in the.

The final note I have is that attacking people who do not agree with you that have equal creditably as programmers as liars is baffling to me. They are not stupid people or ignorant but have come to the table with a different view point.

As for now I am not taking a side that vas is guilty or innocent but i do feel that an almost mob mentality formed and was pervasive in the decision making process. At the very least the process was highly questionable in many respects.

You are free to believe what you want. As far as calling someone a "liar" goes, it is the correct word. Ed claims that we stated that the PST values in Fruit match the PST values in Rybka. And he debunks that statement on his web page. Only problem is, he KNOWS we never stated that. The report, and my comments, have always been in the context of "the fruit PST initialization can be changed very slightly to produce the Rybka PST values EXACTLY. Not "close". Exact. But we have NEVER said that the values match. In fact we have said quite the opposite, because Rybka and Fruit use a different base value for a pawn (100 and 3200 respectively). The values would necessarily be different to work correctly. That statement is a lie, and will always be a lie, claiming we said otherwise.

[Rebel]

Or are you such a type that will state: I am 100% certain that Vas copied Fruit ?

are you 100% certain that rybka is original work?

90-95%

And you ?

[Uly]

Wow if thats the best you can do i am very happy.

You don't deserve my best Harvey, I used to give it as moderator on your forum, captain of your team, and even graphic designer of your whims, and I would advice people to never give their best to a so ungrateful person.

[Prima]

Rebel aka Ed, IF yous strongly believe you're right, why apologize? Your [on-going] actions speaks louder than words and is contrary to your apology.

???

BB felt insulted, I was just being polite because I respect him. You read too much into it. You must have missed the meaning when I said that human objectivity is greatly overrated.

Or are you such a type that will state: I am 100% certain that Vas copied Fruit ?

Absolutely without a doubt. Based on compounding evidences demonstrably (1) affirming Vas copied codes, and (2) your adamant propensities towards veering from facts of code-copying. Contrivance is always, usually a tell-tale sign of hiding known, irrefutable facts of crime(s)/atrocity(ies) committed, from public. Just as telling the truth does not require one to "think about it" to narrate or inculcate truthful events, to law authorities.

By the way, I noticed you resigned from ICGA. Somehow, your resignation has not changed the fact Vas copied Fruit [& Crafty] codes, now has it? Or consider the interview with Nelson Hernandez in which Vas admitted to using "things" from Public Domain. One of several contradictions to his famous "Rybka is 100% at the source code level" statement. Fruit was always released as GPL, not PD. Playing "dumb" or pleading ignorance (as in interview) does not vindicate him [Vas] of code copying.

[BB+]

A quick question. How is it that a fellow who can not keep up with his source code has an seemingly extensive set of notes detailing his thoughts concerning computer chess programming that date back to 2003?

The one that I would find most interesting would be CountingNodes.doc.

And the PST's are NOWHERE exact, not in the widest vista.

I missed this post the first time around. I think others have indicated the mis-parsing of my verbiage. What I said was that the Rybka PST could be generated exactly by method X (the word "exactly" being in opposition to "approximately" within ±1 or 2, as per Ballicora at times). I never meant the resulting PST table was exactly the same as Y. As with others, I find any confusion to be a bit cryptic.

I see NOTHING in Soren's article that merits any debate.

I think his best point was at the end of Part II, where he quoted Letouzey on originality. Unfortunately, he failed to realise that this interview was in 2005 (not 2008 as claimed), and it pre-dated the most relevant Fruit version. Also, there seems to be no attempt at clarification from Letouzey; I'd say it's a rather pressing omission from his "investigation" not to have contacted Rajlich's principal accuser for comment (in general, or on specifics).

[Rebel]

Rebel aka Ed, IF yous strongly believe you're right, why apologize? Your [on-going] actions speaks louder than words and is contrary to your apology.

???

BB felt insulted, I was just being polite because I respect him. You read too much into it. You must have missed the meaning when I said that human objectivity is greatly overrated.

Or are you such a type that will state: I am 100% certain that Vas copied Fruit ?

Absolutely without a doubt.

I already feared that answer.

Ask Zach and Mark, they will not say such things.

[Rebel]

Ask Zach and Mark, they will not say such things.

And have said so if memory serves me well.

[hyatt]

Ask Zach and Mark, they will not say such things.

And have said so if memory serves me well.

Who can be 100% certain of ANYTHING they did not see for themselves? However, I believe ALL of us are 100% convinced that he copied code, because we have learned the art of "inference" which is the very thing jury trials depend on. One can't string together 100 very low probability explanations for 100 very strong pieces of evidence and have anyone believe that. Each piece of evidence is simply "additive" in terms of how it influences the final understanding of what went on. Is it POSSIBLE Vas didn't copy anything? Certainly. Is it "probable"? Only if you consider a probability of 1 in 10^20 or some such number as "probable". Most criminal acts don't have eyewitnesses. But people are convicted daily, all over the world, when enough circumstantial evidence is discovered. This case doesn't just have "enough" it has "way more than enough."

[BB+]

[...] [Would you say] I am 100% certain that Vas copied Fruit ?
[...] Ask Zach and Mark, they will not say such things.

I would say that it is (much) beyond a reasonable doubt that VR infringed Fruit's copyright with various versions of Rybka. Whether or not this is what you mean by "copied" is a different question.

1. Every action causes a reaction of the same magnitude.

I think this an understatement As the pendulum sways back and forth, over time more and more people get behind each end of its course, shoving it harder and harder.