Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

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Chris Whittington
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Chris Whittington » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:24 pm

Correction, my words on Rybka forum ware aimed directly at BH, although they could apply to any whingeing open source programmer who has stated publicly he won't enforce his licence.

As for the rest of your reply, thank you. I take it as a very long winded way of saying ....

"if, I, BB, am called to give evidence in person, which I almost certainly will be if my technical report is to be challenged, then I reserve the right to make application to the court, in whatever jurisdiction it happens to be, for compensation in the event that the case is won by my side".

Which would effectively appear to place you into a "share of the spoils" situation, or perhaps an "addition to the spoils" situation. Say what you want about bias, but for me that is quite a bias.


BB+ wrote:
Chris Whittington wrote:We have an open transparent democracy yet you prefer to go running to undemocratic judgemental places to get closure. Revealing.
Not sure what the referent "open transparency democracy" is. In any event, democracies are also just as famous for trampling minority rights. My recollection is that Aristotle calls them the worst of sociopolitical systems (yet then goes on to describe many in detail, often speaking of their positive aspects). I also might quote your words on the Rybka Forum (aimed at FL): If, as open source programmer, you wish to assert rights or copyrights, go to law, otherwise shut up. It seems he has chosen to do the former (and indeed avoids forums, "democratic" or otherwise, as far as I can tell).

I myself am personally a bit closer to a "commercial" programmer (yes, Magma is licensed at something like $1500 for 3 years, though I also produce other code and maths research), and indeed I had a bitter argument with a colleague 6 years ago when he tried to get me to release some maths code under the GPL [in fact, I spent 20-30 hours re-writing it, so that it would not be so encumbered].
Chris Whittington wrote:If this goes to court though, in Poland you seem to prefer since the monies are allegedly better there, you'll have the opportunity, if Vas loses, to ask the court to claim your expert witness costs/expenses/profit element to be paid to you direct. Which appears to put you into a no win no fee situation.
These seems to be a mischaracterisation of Polish courts. For instance, Polish lawyers are not allowed (by the ethics of the bar) to work exclusively [or even primarily, it seems] on a contingency basis. Legal costs therein are payable by the loser, but fall under a fixed scale: The legal costs are limited to the fees of one attorney which are calculated on the basis of the value of the claim according to the scale provided for in the law (anecdotes indicate this typically does not cover the totality of the lawyer's share in practise). There is no provision for additional "expert costs" to the best of my knowledge, although if the court appoints an "expert", then the loser must pay the court costs involved in that. At any rate, it seems reasonable for the FSF to handle the "probative" (and thus less technical) aspects of the copying via their own (lackey) "experts", particularly as this will allow them to justify the existence of such.
Chris Whittington wrote:Vested interest in not only guilt, but guilt via court process rather than compromise.
A bit strange, then, that I should be "terrorising" persons into a settlement as previously suggested? Your argument seems to grasp in various directions, rather than following a consistent pattern.
Chris Whittington wrote:100 USD per hour or so you keep trumpeting.
That was a joke at Ed! Everyone knows that academics are lucky to make half that. :lol: I talked about the "conflict of interest" elsewhere. I get nada (as in zip, zilch-o) in any event. The only exception might be if I were asked to testify in person.
Perhaps you could take this opportunity to clear any misunderstanding and state unequivocably that you will decline any form of compensation from whatever source and that your entire contribution, including expenses, has been and will be funded from your own pocket without any attempt by you to recover anything?

Perhaps you could also reassure us that there is no research angle to any of this and you have not and will not use this process and/or its results in any academic furtherences.

Just trying to help you establish yourself as totally unbiased and quite altruistic .....
I affirm the above two "Perhaps" statements, with the caveat just mentioned. [But this hardly is proof of being "unbiased", as you surely know, and indeed IIRC you concluded no one could truly be labelled such]. E.g., my plans to visit Tilburg this November are out-of-pocket (it may not seem to you that Banff is close to Tilburg, but then, you aren't in Sydney to start ;) -- and I'll catch my family up for Thanksgiving on the way back, so the cost is partially offset by other travel), the only academic connection is that I offered to visit the number theory group in Leiden. [Incidentally, I once had a debate with a colleague whether we could claim our own frequent-flyer miles when being re-imbursed by the university -- I argued in the negative].

BB+
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by BB+ » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:46 pm

if, I, BB, am called to give evidence in person, which I almost certainly will be if my technical report is to be challenged
This is not clear in Polish legal process, and indeed seems unlikely. Many arguments (particularly those of a technical nature) are not oral, but go back/forth via written arguments [like Roman courts] and my guess is that (at most) only the question of "copyright of computer programs" at its abstract level (e.g., literary protection) would be done orally if R/F reaches that point. Most "bench trials" in (say) the US operate the same way (and almost Polish trials are "bench" trials, with no jury). Any disputes over technical matters would be much less likely to be done via oral bickering -- the court would likely appoint its own expert, who would, after hearing the arguments of the disputing experts, issue an (advisory) opinion concerning which was more likely to be correct, and the assurance level therein.

And at any rate, it seems only that I might be able to claim the cost of a trip to Poland (which I most likely would not want to undertake in the first place).

I know you care little, and appear much more interested in tracing some "cui bono" phantasm, but someone else might desire to look at the Polish Civil Procedure.

hyatt
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by hyatt » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:35 pm

Which would effectively appear to place you into a "share of the spoils" situation, or perhaps an "addition to the spoils" situation. Say what you want about bias, but for me that is quite a bias.
Have you ever been involved in a real court case? I have, several times. If an expert witness only asks for travel money, he is certainly "losing" overall. And in many bench trials, that is all you get unless the plantiff/defendent hire you and pay you themselves, and then try to recover that cost from the other side after the verdict is rendered.

It is a huge cost in terms of time and effort. I've been an expert witness in one particular case, and it was excruciating. Be there at 9am as directed, sit on a bench outside the courtroom all day while the lawyers argue over some procedure or process. Come back next day, take the stand, after 2 questions, I am asked to leave the courtroom along with the jury, while the lawyers again squabble over some procedural issue. My testimony took under 30 minutes total (non chess related). It spread over 3 days. I would not volunteer to do that, period, unless it was for family. Otherwise, damned right someone would have to pay me. Then they could squabble and delay all they want. There's no way an expert witness could participate in "the spoils of war." He would get a flat-rate negotiated with the side that requested his services. And he would get nothing more, regardless of the verdict, unless he entered into such an agreement before the trial. Whether that is even permissible or not I don't know and don't care as it is not something I would do.

zwegner
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by zwegner » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:09 pm

Rebel wrote:
zwegner wrote:Jeez. The information is on page 2 of this thread. If you're too lazy: viewtopic.php?p=13622#p13622

Is it really necessary to accuse Mark of something untowards here?
About Jeez......

Do not jump into conclusions too early :mrgreen:

See my answer to BB.
This post?
Oki doki, mystery explained. Perhaps you can leave a trace when you modify a posting like the much used "Edit *" in fora. It was pretty confusing revisiting a post and find essential info suddenly missing.
Do you realize that he didn't modify anything? His correction was in a separate post. You accused him of deliberately deleting his post in an attempt to hide evidence, which he clearly did not do...

Terry McCracken
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Terry McCracken » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:08 pm

veritas wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Rebel wrote:Given that every reasonable chess program has all (or almost all) the ingredients as mentioned in the Zach & BB documents (mine certainly has all) makes a comparison hardly possible. Much of what's described in the document I either have done similar (and a lot earlier than good old Fabien :lol:) or is done in a general known but just in a somewhat different way of doing the same thing, namely, to evaluate a positional aspect of a position following his understanding of the aspect.

Problem with EVAL is (and with PST it's similar) there are not so much choices. There are not 10 or 20 ways to calculate mobility, only few. Same with other aspects, king safety, all programs evaluate the squares close to the enemy king. Furthermore a chess programmer is forced to do it in quick and simple solutions for speed reasons. So possible alternatives quickly shrink and programs tend to become similar in the techniques they use.

However what I would accept as damaging is an exact or a great similarity in the order of the evaluation ingredients. I had a quick look at the Fruit and Strelka EVAL and that doesn't appear the case, I leave this to the Rybka/Fruit/Strelka experts.

The point is, I have a hard time to believe that Vas (in 2005) took the Fruit sources as a base and changed the order of Fruit's EVAL because he foresaw a scenario he would become so famous that somebody would re-engineer his program an he possibly could be caught on exact order of the ingredients in EVAL.

I would say, no similarity, not guilty.

What will you say when the FSF finds Vas guilty of copyright infringement??? You sure don't have any problem slamming your peers to protect one dubious programmer. What the hell Ed?
good post Terry

Ed tries to be a "Rebel with a (changeable as hormonal pms ) cause " but really is more Inspector clue-so and Rebel without a clue

criminal waste of cyber trees even responding to the like really... fools only attempt to drag all down to there level and win by virtue of experience

I do not dislike Ed, just the opposite, but in this case he is simply wrong and for whatever reason feels compelled to defend Vas and rescind all he said. I am disappointed that Ed has abandoned all rational . There are others that have less noble reasons. One, that is anything but anonymous.

Prima
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Prima » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:10 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:
Rebel wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote: What will you say when the FSF finds Vas guilty of copyright infringement??? You sure don't have any problem slamming your peers to protect one dubious programmer. What the hell Ed?
Hey Terry, hope you are well.

Regarding the question, what will you say when the FSF frees Vas of guilt?

Pretty pointless huh?

Take care.

I'll restate it...When the FSF finds Vas guilty. The almost certain outcome.
Terry, ed schroeder "fails to get" 2 key points: (1) For the FSF to pursue copyright infringement cases, they already have ample evidences to do so. Not speculations. And (2) It's not a matter of "IF" the FSF wins but "When" the FSF wins.

All that he's doing is putting up a charade on the irrelevant PST stuffs - which would not bear much significance in the FSF/court case. Watch him try to make the PSF stuffs important and run foolishly with it.

Prima
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Prima » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:21 pm

BB+ wrote:
Rebel wrote: BB,

I double checked, did a search on the word "notes" (even on "note") but the information simply is gone.
[...]
Care to explain ?

Thanks.
I've never been happy with the "Search" function here, as it ignores "common" words -- and it seems that anything I want to find is always "common" :( . A better way is simply to search by person, and then thumb through recent posts. I'm not sure I used the word "notes" in that post in any event (it seems that "listing" was the word choice).

Zach indicated where the evidence is, though I seriously did consider making it a PDF [another hour of "billing time" :lol: ], so as to be easier to find. Maybe I should have opened a new thread, though that again seemed extraneous.

I also made a correction to the ordering in this post. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1559&start=50#p13748
Rebel wrote:That was before you started the 2 silly PM's, yes ?
I will agree not to send "silly" PMs, if you agree not to make "silly" posts. ;)
Rebel wrote: Well, looks an easy job to me to compare the 3 UCI signatures of Fruit / Rybka / Strelka.

Do they match ?
Again you seem to be asking for a conclusion, while I would rather point you to the evidence, and let you decide and/or argue it through -- sorry if this is not what you wanted. In this regard, see 6.3 of RYBKA_FRUIT. I could expand the evidential enumeration therein [as 6.3 is a condensed patchwork of various points], but for you I see no point in that [and you'd have to assume that I did it correctly]. In this regard (for UCI parsing), I don't think Strelka's source code is a good surrogate for Rybka (should I conclude it's thereby not a clone/derivative?! :shock: ). Better to look at Rick Fadden's disassembly (the link is in 6.3), if you want more details.
What will you say when the FSF finds Vas guilty of copyright infringement???
Regarding the question, what will you say when the FSF frees Vas of guilt?
Pretty pointless huh?
Take care.
I really hope the FSF follows this one through, just so we all get to see you blame yet another organization (and everyone else) for Vas' misconduct...
The FSF essentially exists to follow cases like this through (along with its legal arm, the SFLC), and has already decided to pursue it. I think (haven't heard in awhile, and France treats August as a month for vacation) they are currently chasing down contact details for all known R1-R232a distributors as the initial course of action, and will send them [in an official manner] their standard form letter, asking them to comply with the GPL restrictions regarding source code availability, blah-blah-blah.

Assembling the case for monetary damages will then occur later. I'm not in the loop, but my impression is that it is essentially "certain" that the case will be seen through (one way or the other), according to Fabien's wishes. The evidence is more than sufficient, as is the magnitude of any benefits derived from Fruit-infringement. If the FSF didn't go through with this, one might wonder what the use of transferring copyright to them could possibly be.

As such, my opinion is that there is principally one endpoint at this juncture: a drawn-out court case [maybe in multiple jurisdictions, but as I say, the FSF/SFLC have little better to do -- this case is probably even a "big fish" to them!]. And as Don Dailey put it (amidst a barrage of other comments), the inevitable verdict of "guilty" for copyright infringement seems clear. The only question is the percentage award. Combined with the quirks of Polish copyright law (triple damages, and a 2x contribution to a "Ministry Fund for Creativity" -- see pages 1049-50 here, or Sections 79,1-2 of the Polish Copyright Act), I don't think that a maximal liability for Rajlich of 7 figures (in euros) is any exaggeration, though it depends on the exact percentages awarded, not to mention the actual extent of Rybka profitability.

OTOH, the FSF itself mostly cares about its "free software" philosophy, and only pursues damages on the behalf of those who transfer them copyright, at least until lawyers get involved [when they also ask for compensation therein]. Simply changing the "demo version" to be R3 instead of R232a should suffice for them. Similarly, I wouldn't think Fabien is against a reasonable settlement , though he also seems just as willing to let the FSF/SFLC grind the wheels of justice. But as CW recently put it [in a Rybka Forum thread remarkably free of spam!], in computer chess there's never compromise solutions, and comments from more than one "Rybka Forum insider" suggest the same.


Thank you BB+ for expounding on FSF's course of action relative to this matter. That's what came to mind, when I read "the quoted" statement/s from an FSF personnel's statement in light of the Fruit/Crafty->/ICGA outcome.

Again thanks for your thorough enlightenment.

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Rebel
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Rebel » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:50 pm

zwegner wrote:
Rebel wrote:
zwegner wrote:Jeez. The information is on page 2 of this thread. If you're too lazy: viewtopic.php?p=13622#p13622

Is it really necessary to accuse Mark of something untowards here?
About Jeez......

Do not jump into conclusions too early :mrgreen:

See my answer to BB.
This post?
Oki doki, mystery explained. Perhaps you can leave a trace when you modify a posting like the much used "Edit *" in fora. It was pretty confusing revisiting a post and find essential info suddenly missing.
Do you realize that he didn't modify anything? His correction was in a separate post. You accused him of deliberately deleting his post in an attempt to hide evidence, which he clearly did not do...
Are we going the Hyatt way now? Or did you simply misread. I am (still) given you the benefit of the doubt.

Summary, BB posted the order of eval from his notes. The info was not equal with what was posted before. The next day when revisiting the post the notes were gone. And now you want to blame me that awoke my curiosity? So I asked. Then when BB explained that he indeed modified I immediately accepted his explanation.

Are we fine now or not ?

Or are we now in the state of mistrusting each others motives?

zwegner
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by zwegner » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:52 pm

Rebel wrote:Are we going the Hyatt way now? Or did you simply misread. I am (still) given you the benefit of the doubt.

Summary, BB posted the order of eval from his notes. The info was not equal with what was posted before. The next day when revisiting the post the notes were gone. And now you want to blame me that awoke my curiosity? So I asked. Then when BB explained that he indeed modified I immediately accepted his explanation.

Are we fine now or not ?
No. THE NOTES WERE NEVER REMOVED. BB DID NOT MODIFY ANYTHING. As he said, he made a correction in a completely separate post. The two original posts were on page 2, and the correction is at the bottom of page 6 of this very thread. He even linked to the post (look, here it is: viewtopic.php?p=13748#p13748). They are all still there, and they have NOT been edited or deleted (the posts would give a timestamp of when they were edited if so).
Or are we now in the state of mistrusting each others motives?
This is why I'm even bringing it up. BB did nothing wrong, but you were quick to suggest that he was deleting or modifying evidence. Why do you mistrust him? Sorry to belabor this point...

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Rebel
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Re: Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

Post by Rebel » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:55 pm

Sigh Zach.

1. The words "from my notes" were written and are gone. Use the search function, it's not there. Not even the phrase "my notes". Period.

2. I don't mistrust BB. Period.

3. In the hypothetical case my memory failed me I hereby apologize to you and BB.

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