Thoughts on Fruit=Rybka EVAL

[Rebel]

Ed,

Your anger is taking away your sense of humor.

Mark

Nice derail, quite creative, I admit

I asked a serious question which BTW you could have answered but instead choose to play down guessing my mood.

[Rebel]

Ed,

Your anger is taking away your sense of humor.

Mark

Now that you are here and we are in the phase of being deaf for each other points I invite to comment on the following:

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Is that a huge point or not ?

[hyatt]

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Where does that come from? If someone copies and doesn't change, that might be correct. But if they copy with the idea of improving, as they improve the code they will change it, rearrange it. You can compare several versions of Crafty and see that I rearranged quite a bit on occasion when trying to improve the code, as opposed to just using what I have and changing code elsewhere, say in the search.

Comment doesn't make any sense to me at all with respect to the rybka/fruit/crafty issue(s).

[mjlef]

Ed,

Your anger is taking away your sense of humor.

Mark

Nice derail, quite creative, I admit

I asked a serious question which BTW you could have answered but instead choose to play down guessing my mood.

What question? I do not recall you asking me any questions, but if you did, could you repeat them here and I would be glad to try and answer them. Perhaps you are confusing two different people?

[Rebel]

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Where does that come from? If someone copies and doesn't change, that might be correct. But if they copy with the idea of improving, as they improve the code they will change it, rearrange it. You can compare several versions of Crafty and see that I rearranged quite a bit on occasion when trying to improve the code, as opposed to just using what I have and changing code elsewhere, say in the search. Comment doesn't make any sense to me at all with respect to the rybka/fruit/crafty issue(s).

Indeed, you said well, the emphasis is on occasion. Not within a time frame of 5½ months having tons of other things on your mind among that an elo improvement of 100 elo.

Thank you for making my point.

The EVAL of all program's differ in order and Fruit and Strelka are no exception.

So the whole argument that Rybka started its life as Fruit falls apart.

[Chris Whittington]

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Where does that come from? If someone copies and doesn't change, that might be correct. But if they copy with the idea of improving, as they improve the code they will change it, rearrange it. You can compare several versions of Crafty and see that I rearranged quite a bit on occasion when trying to improve the code, as opposed to just using what I have and changing code elsewhere, say in the search.

Comment doesn't make any sense to me at all with respect to the rybka/fruit/crafty issue(s).

when will you stop comparing your very old and mature program which has been through years of modifications and serial numbers with programs that were in their infancy, version 1s and 2s?

Young programs simply do not have the multiplicity of possible sub-function variants of old programs. Young programs are built on the cheap and simple model (avoids bugs, 1001 other functions to code and test). The variation comes with age as the older programmer struggles to find nuances to try to deal with his being overtaken by the new young ones.

Young programs are simpler, less varied, use more standard building blocks.

Stop with the Crafty comparisons in these instances, they just serve to obfuscate and prevent the development of dicsussions and arguments. Or is that perhaps the point?

[Rebel]

Ed,

Your anger is taking away your sense of humor.

Mark

Nice derail, quite creative, I admit

I asked a serious question which BTW you could have answered but instead choose to play down guessing my mood.

What question? I do not recall you asking me any questions, but if you did, could you repeat them here and I would be glad to try and answer them. Perhaps you are confusing two different people?

I am not talking to Mark Lefter then?

But okay, BB can answer the question himself.

But perhaps you missed the question addressed in the link below.

http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php ... &start=120

Thanks.

[hyatt]

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Where does that come from? If someone copies and doesn't change, that might be correct. But if they copy with the idea of improving, as they improve the code they will change it, rearrange it. You can compare several versions of Crafty and see that I rearranged quite a bit on occasion when trying to improve the code, as opposed to just using what I have and changing code elsewhere, say in the search. Comment doesn't make any sense to me at all with respect to the rybka/fruit/crafty issue(s).

Indeed, you said well, the emphasis is on occasion. Not within a time frame of 5½ months having tons of other things on your mind among that an elo improvement of 100 elo.

Thank you for making my point.

The EVAL of all program's differ in order and Fruit and Strelka are no exception.

So the whole argument that Rybka started its life as Fruit falls apart.

Or we can take the _really_ simple and obvious example of Rybka 1.6.1... How do you explain _that_ program that clearly violates copyright and tournament participation rules??? Or do we just ignore that one since it didn't play in an ICGA event? I suppose I could ask Peter to start a CCT investigation so that it can't be ignored???


No idea what you mean. In 6 months I completely redid Crafty's eval and parts of the search. Produced an elo gain of +120 from 22.1 to 22.2... So exactly what are you talking about? It seems that I did exactly what you are saying could not have happened. As far as the order issue, depends on what you mean by order. The order with which you evaluate pawns, then passed pawns, then pieces, then king safety and such? Or the order within an individual piece of evaluation. This latter is what Mark looked at, and that is not "falling apart" at all...

[hyatt]

A Fruit copy-boy prior to 2006 would leave the order of EVAL intact.

Where does that come from? If someone copies and doesn't change, that might be correct. But if they copy with the idea of improving, as they improve the code they will change it, rearrange it. You can compare several versions of Crafty and see that I rearranged quite a bit on occasion when trying to improve the code, as opposed to just using what I have and changing code elsewhere, say in the search.

Comment doesn't make any sense to me at all with respect to the rybka/fruit/crafty issue(s).

when will you stop comparing your very old and mature program which has been through years of modifications and serial numbers with programs that were in their infancy, version 1s and 2s?

Young programs simply do not have the multiplicity of possible sub-function variants of old programs. Young programs are built on the cheap and simple model (avoids bugs, 1001 other functions to code and test). The variation comes with age as the older programmer struggles to find nuances to try to deal with his being overtaken by the new young ones.

Young programs are simpler, less varied, use more standard building blocks.

Stop with the Crafty comparisons in these instances, they just serve to obfuscate and prevent the development of dicsussions and arguments. Or is that perhaps the point?

I'll be happy to compare versions of Crafty from version 1 to 8 or whatever was completed in the first year or two of development. Good enough for you??? That would match with Rybka's "age". Of course, you still have to somehow hand-wave the rybka 1.6.1 problem, but that's a different issue apparently...

[Rebel]

The EVAL of all program's differ in order and Fruit and Strelka are no exception.

No idea what you mean.

Exactly, because the panel never came up with the consideration.

It's a smoking gun, missing link, it should be there but it isn't.

No shame in this, just want to have it recognized.