Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

[Matthias Gemuh]

...

2. Related to (1), the active role of the ICGA pushing the story into the mainstream media is disgusting and totally self-serving. There is absolutely no need for that. The programmer community got the message already.

3. The ban of Chris W. from the panel. If there was one active voice speaking in defence for Vas it was Chris W. Chris subscribed but had to undergo a mortifying and humiliating process of identification. When Chris after having showed a lot of patience finally responded in his usual charming way they complained he was being rude and was not allowed to enter. Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the past knows about the arduous relationship between the 2. The ICGA was looking for a reason and Chris gave them eventually. As a result of this scandalous intentional provocation I gave the IGCA the middle finger as well and asked them to remove my subscription. The real bad news is that Vas has been denied the only voice who would have spoken in his defence.

Thanks for listening.

The ICGA pushed the story into the mainstream media ?
How did they achieve that ?

Chris W. could have successfully defended silent Vas ?
Wow, how
- by letting that huge volume of evidence disappear out of Rybka ? ridiculous !!

Matthias.

[Rebel]

The ICGA pushed the story into the mainstream media ? How did they achieve that ?

Cause David Levy has the right contacts.

Chris W. could have successfully defended silent Vas ?
Wow, how
- by letting that huge volume of evidence disappear out of Rybka ? ridiculous !!

The outcome does not matter, it's about the principle of a fair trail.

[Rebel]

There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught.

So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?

Please feel free to point out _one_ block of stolen code from Rybka that is in Crafty. Then we will talk...

You should not twist my words, the issue here is the stolen legacy of Vas, the stolen ideas good for 300-400 elo points. If you are going to argue the big elo jumps Crafty made had nothing to do with the stolen idea's from Vas then it's more likely the Earth is flat after all.

Any others you want to mention???

Oh absolutely. Any programmer who spoke the verdict "guilty" at the tribunal and at the same time has profited from the stolen ideas of Rybka is a fence.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught.

So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?

Please feel free to point out _one_ block of stolen code from Rybka that is in Crafty. Then we will talk...

You should not twist my words, the issue here is the stolen legacy of Vas, the stolen ideas good for 300-400 elo points. If you are going to argue the big elo jumps Crafty made had nothing to do with the stolen idea's from Vas then it's more likely the Earth is flat after all.

Any others you want to mention???

Oh absolutely. Any programmer who spoke the verdict "guilty" at the tribunal and at the same time has profited from the stolen ideas of Rybka is a fence.

There is no such thing as a stolen idea, just stolen code. You know that, as well, so I'm not sure what your point is. That other chess authors learned from Vas' improvements and implemented similar in their programs? That's the normal state of affairs. "Guilty of plagiarism" doesn't mean "free of originality". So what is your point?

jb

[Gerd Isenberg]

I share your critique concerning the life-time ban, the media coverage, and that Chris W. was banned from the panel.

Gerd

[Matthias Gemuh]

You should not twist my words, the issue here is the stolen legacy of Vas, the stolen ideas good for 300-400 elo points. If you are going to argue the big elo jumps Crafty made had nothing to do with the stolen idea's from Vas then it's more likely the Earth is flat after all.

Has _anybody_ been condemned for stealing ideas ?
Please, name the Rybka ideas that boosted Crafty (though nobody condemns the "stealing" of ideas).

Matthias.

[hyatt]

Apparently that there would be some difference if I used an idea that Vas proposed, even though Vas used many of my ideas (rotated bitboards, other pieces of source code, etc.) not to mention other ideas from other authors, going all the way back to alpha/beta and minimax.

But in any case, I stand by my statement that we have yet to look at _any_ ideas from the various ip*/robo* programs. The only idea I even looked at was the TT-singular thing. I found it didn't work for me. I removed it from stockfish and it seemed to make no difference there. At much longer time controls, it did eventually seem to help stockfish a tiny amount. But it is not in Crafty anywhere. We do a check evasion extension and nothing else.

[hyatt]

I share your critique concerning the life-time ban, the media coverage, and that Chris W. was banned from the panel.

Gerd

Just for the record, Chris applied, there was a 1-2 day lag as each applicant was screened, we did not want anonymous people, nor people with no technical background. During that lag in admission, Chris did his usual and started his complaining. The group generally decided that they could do without his noise. I did not vote to deny him admission, but then I did not object due to the usual flare-up while he was waiting. And in retrospect, it was a + for the panel, Chris had already made a zillion bogus arguments about why vas "might not have actually copied" fruit code, even though they are identical. Those discussions are still available. Might have been here, am not sure, or at CCC perhaps...

It would have been about as productive to include Rolf. Wonder if some of you guys would have criticized us had he applied and been turned down???

[Jeremy Bernstein]

I share your critique concerning the life-time ban, the media coverage, and that Chris W. was banned from the panel.

Gerd

Just for the record, Chris applied, there was a 1-2 day lag as each applicant was screened, we did not want anonymous people, nor people with no technical background. During that lag in admission, Chris did his usual and started his complaining. The group generally decided that they could do without his noise. I did not vote to deny him admission, but then I did not object due to the usual flare-up while he was waiting. And in retrospect, it was a + for the panel, Chris had already made a zillion bogus arguments about why vas "might not have actually copied" fruit code, even though they are identical. Those discussions are still available. Might have been here, am not sure, or at CCC perhaps...

It would have been about as productive to include Rolf. Wonder if some of you guys would have criticized us had he applied and been turned down???

Except that Rolf is a troll with no technical background whatsoever, whereas Chris is a respected chess engine programmer with years of experience and plenty of technical background. No matter how annoying he is. As a secretariat member, your role was, in fact, to determine which of the panel members had "bogus" arguments before passing along your recommendation to the Board, not to filter the panel ahead of time and prevent unwanted, "unproductive" input.

EDIT: the result, in this case, is unlikely to have been affected, given the weight of the technical evidence. But in a process like this, it's kind of important to demonstrate a willingness to hear all points of view.

Jeremy

[Rebel]

There is no such thing as a stolen idea, just stolen code. You know that, as well, so I'm not sure what your point is. That other chess authors learned from Vas' improvements and implemented similar in their programs? That's the normal state of affairs. "Guilty of plagiarism" doesn't mean "free of originality". So what is your point?

Rybka was re-engineered into readable source code, with that it was easy to extract the basic idea's of Rybka's superiority and thus the implementation in other engines began. We have seen all the spectacular elo jumps. The hacker being hacked. So in one hand Vas has been rightfully convicted, on the other hand there are programmers doing exactly the same, using hacked stuff that is not theirs and never was intended to be theirs.

If that is not a moral dilemma then my mother did not raise me well.

PS, notice the subject of the thread.