Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

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Tony Mokonen
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Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:11 pm

Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Tony Mokonen » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:19 am

well 5...Nxd5!! is totaly sound and nothing wrong in playing It.
I dunno.... I think the Lolli Attack (6. d4) is quite good for White.
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Vempele
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Vempele » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:19 pm

6...Nxd4 and then what?
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Uly
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Uly » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:49 am

Tony Mokonen wrote:I dunno.... I think the Lolli Attack (6. d4) is quite good for White.
The Lolli Attack requires 6. d4 exd4?! 7.O-O, black can avoid it.
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Tony Mokonen
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Tony Mokonen » Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:09 am

Vempele wrote:6...Nxd4 and then what?
The position after 6...Nxd4 has over a 90% score for White in my database. I think 7. c3 would be quite sufficient here.
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Vempele
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Vempele » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:40 am

7...b5 8. Bd3 h6 and there are no games left in my database.
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Uly
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Uly » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:15 am

Vempele wrote:7...b5 8. Bd3 h6 and there are no games left in my database.
Cool, it shows Stockfish weird behavior from the other thread.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. d4 Nxd4 7. c3 b5 8. Bd3 h6 
.16/20	 0:00 	+0.40--	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O a6 12.Ba4 Nb6 13.Qc2 Nxa4 14.Rd1 Nd4 15.cxd4 Bb7 16.Nbc3 Nxc3 17.bxc3 O-O-O 18.Rb1 Qc6 (1.899.015) 2170
 16/19	 0:01 	+0.53 	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O Bb7 12.Nbd2 a6 13.Bc4 O-O-O 14.Nb3 Nb6 15.Be2 Qxd1 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Bxd1 Be7 18.Nbc5 (3.220.656) 2290
 17/20	 0:01 	+0.42--	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O Bb7 12.Nbd2 a6 13.Bc4 O-O-O 14.Nb3 Nb6 15.Be2 Qxd1 16.Rxd1 Rxd1+ 17.Bxd1 Be7 18.Nbc5 f5 (3.883.634) 2324
 17/21	 0:02 	+0.64++	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O Bb7 12.Nbd2 a6 13.Nb3 axb5 14.Nbc5 Bxc5 15.Nxc5 Qd6 16.Nxb7 Qd7 17.Qb3 O-O 18.Qxb5 Rfb8 19.a4 (5.152.415) 2355
 17/25	 0:02 	+0.55 	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O Bb7 12.Nbd2 a6 13.Nb3 axb5 14.Nbc5 Bxc5 15.Nxc5 Qd6 16.Nxb7 Qd7 17.Qb3 O-O 18.Qxb5 Rfb8 19.Re1 Nf6 20.a4 Qd5 21.c4 (5.220.479) 2353
 18/16	 0:02 	+0.44--	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O a6 12.Ba4 Nb6 13.Bxc6 Qxc6 14.Nbd2 Be6 15.Qh5 O-O-O 16.Qxe5 Rd5 (6.696.608) 2395
 18/16	 0:03 	+0.33--	9.Ne4 Nc6 10.Bxb5 Qd7 11.O-O a6 12.Ba4 Nb6 13.Bxc6 Qxc6 14.Nbd2 Be6 15.Qh5 O-O-O 16.Qxe5 Rd5 (8.925.776) 2441
 18/11	 0:05 	+0.35 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nc3 (13.983.755) 2579
 19/17	 0:08 	+0.59++	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Nxa1 14.Re1 Bg4+ 15.Bf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 Bxf3+ 17.gxf3 (23.212.968) 2701
 19/17	 0:11 	+0.83++	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Nxa1 14.Re1 Bg4+ 15.Bf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 Bxf3+ 17.gxf3 (31.664.118) 2776
 19/17	 0:15 	+1.32++	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Nxa1 14.Re1 Bg4+ 15.Bf3 Nxc3+ 16.bxc3 Bxf3+ 17.gxf3 (44.038.591) 2821
 19/28	 0:15 	+1.27 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.Bxe4 Qe7 12.Nd2 Nc2+ 13.Kd1 Nxa1 14.Re1 Bg4+ 15.Bf3 Be6 16.Bxd5 O-O-O 17.Bxe6+ fxe6 18.Qh3 Rd6 19.Qf3 c6 20.Qe4 Qf7 21.Ke2 Kb8 22.Kf1 (44.629.509) 2816
 20/11	 0:21 	+0.35 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nc3 (60.998.319) 2828
 21/11	 0:26 	+0.35 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nc3 (74.582.200) 2831
 22/11	 0:46 	+0.35 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nc3 (130.863.553) 2823
 23/11	 1:09 	+0.35 	9.Qh5 hxg5 10.Qxh8 e4 11.cxd4 exd3 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Nc3 (197.859.773) 2848
 23/05	 1:36 	+0.46++	9.Nxf7 Kxf7 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Bd2 (268.457.300) 2782
(Stockfish abandons Nxf7 and goes back to Qh5)

(User forces Nxf7)
.16/20	 0:00 	+0.41 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Bd2 exd4 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Bxb5 Rab8 15.Bc4 Nf4 16.Qc2 g5 17.Bxe6+ Nxe6 18.Qc6 Rhd8 19.b3 (1.427.823) 2078
 17/24	 0:01 	+0.35 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Bd2 exd4 12.O-O Be6 13.Re1 Qf6 14.Be4 Bxd2 15.Nxd2 Rhd8 16.Nb3 Rac8 17.Nc5 Nf4 18.Nxe6 Nxe6 19.Bd3 Kg8 20.Qb3 Rd6 21.Qxb5 (2.324.882) 2254
 18/14	 0:02 	+0.47--	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Bd2 exd4 12.Qf3+ Kg8 13.O-O Rb8 14.Re1 c6 15.Bg6 Qf8 16.Re8 (6.086.277) 2481
 18/23	 0:05 	+0.38 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Bc4 Be7 14.Nd2 Rf8 15.Nb3 Kg8 16.Nxd4 Bd7 17.Be3 Kh8 18.Re1 Bc5 19.Qh5 Qf6 20.Bxd5 Bxd4 (13.290.747) 2617
 19/18	 0:06 	+0.49--	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Bc4 Be7 14.Nd2 Rf8 15.Nf3 Kg8 16.Qxd4 Bf5 17.Re1 Qd6 18.Qe5 (16.659.812) 2632
 19/19	 0:07 	+0.27++	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Re1 Qh4 15.Nd2 Bg4 16.Qc2 Bd6 17.g3 Qh5 18.Qe4 Rae8 (18.983.575) 2613
 19/19	 0:07 	+0.16++	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Re1 Qh4 15.Nd2 Bg4 16.Qc2 Bd6 17.g3 Qh5 18.Qe4 Rae8 (19.932.395) 2614
 19/23	 0:09 	+0.32 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Nd2 Bd6 15.Nf3 Re8 16.Nxd4 Kg8 17.Qd3 Qd7 18.Re1 Bf7 19.Bd2 a5 20.Nf5 Be5 (26.054.310) 2609
 20/08	 0:18 	+0.43--	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.a4 b4 13.Re1 (47.944.534) 2652
 20/14	 0:19 	+0.54--	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Bd2 exd4 12.Qf3+ Kg8 13.O-O Rb8 14.Re1 c6 15.Bg6 Qf8 16.Re8 (52.969.296) 2654
 20/26	 0:30 	+0.52 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O c6 12.Nd2 Kg8 13.Nb3 c5 14.Bxb5 Be6 15.Re1 Bf7 16.Bc4 Qc7 17.Qf3 Rd8 18.g3 Nb4 19.Bf4 Qd7 20.Bxf7+ Qxf7 21.Qe4 a6 22.Re2 (81.273.037) 2686
 21/15	 1:00 	+0.26++	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O a6 12.a4 Rb8 13.axb5 axb5 14.Na3 Qd7 15.Bxb5 Rxb5 16.Nxb5 Qxb5 (161.903.324) 2676
 21/24	 1:12 	+0.43 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O Rb8 12.a4 a6 13.axb5 axb5 14.Na3 Qd7 15.Be2 Nf6 16.Bf4 Rb6 17.Qc2 Ba6 18.Qxc7 Qxc7 19.Bxc7 Re6 20.Bd3 Nd5 21.Bg3 (194.489.875) 2680
 22/07	 1:21 	+0.43 	9...Kxf7 10.cxd4 exd4 11.O-O Rb8 12.a4 a6 (218.666.890) 2684
Definitively not a won game like Tony implied.
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Tony Mokonen
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Tony Mokonen » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:11 am

Definitively not a won game like Tony implied.
Say what? :D I said it was good for White, not a clear win or anything.
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Uly
Posts: 838
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Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Uly » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:51 am

Tony Mokonen wrote:The position after 6...Nxd4 has over a 90% score for White in my database. I think 7. c3 would be quite sufficient here.
Sounds to me like you were saying "7. c3 would be quite sufficient to win", but the impression may have been caused by the 90% in that line.
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Tony Mokonen
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:11 pm

Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by Tony Mokonen » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:13 am

I'm sorry about that Uly, it was unclear wording on my part.
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JHE
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Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Please tell me why this opening shouldn't scare you?

Post by JHE » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:45 am

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5

6. Nxf7 is the move black should be concerned about AFAICS:

6. Nxf7 Kxf7 7. Qf3+ ... Black is still "ok" but the position is very sharp and black often only has 1 good move, on the other hand White will have to be careful not to waste his positional advantage. I've got houdini doing some analysis on the position, I'll post the .pgn once I get most of the better lines explored.
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