I love the Caro Kan defense. Unfortunately I'm being forced to avoid using it because it can transpose to the BDG Gambit if White wants to force the issue. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 and we're off to the races in the BDG Gambit. Technically, according to SCID this is called the Rasa Sturdier Gambit line in the Caro Kan. But it's still the BDG Gambit.
Did a frantic search last night to find out the answer to facing the BDG Gambit and learned from an old archived posting from a chess forum that the only way to avoid the BDG as Black is to use the Pirc Defense. And guess what? You can castle into the storm so to speak when White is trying the Fried Liver Attack. I've read that trying to force the issue by giving up the N and B for the R is a net loss for for White because Black ends up with a better structure.
Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
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Jeremy Bernstein
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Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
How about 4...exf3 5. Nxf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 Bf5 and ...e6 and what's your problem? Black's got a solid pawn and good chances.
Jeremy
Jeremy
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Jeremy Bernstein
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Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
Which is to say that I'm not sure why you're so afraid of this gambit. With good play, Black should be fine.Jeremy Bernstein wrote:How about 4...exf3 5. Nxf3 Nf6 6. Bc4 Bf5 and ...e6 and what's your problem? Black's got a solid pawn and good chances.
Jeremy
http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/8/mar04.htm
Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
I'm shocked, absolutely shocked there is a saving move that stops the BDG Gambit but NONE of the books I've seen mention this line. Okay, let's say we get 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 and all the books I've read don't even bother mentioning how to decline the pawn offer. These GM's disdain this opening so much they haughtily say don't bother with trying to decline the gambit and go right ahead and do a Korchnoi and take the pawn.
Well, I've been having so many problems with accepting this pawn offer and end up lost within 20 moves. And then I remembered a comment my opponent actually told me the secret...and I've yet to see ANYONE mention this move. But I was told GM's have this move in hand and use it against the BDG Gambit experts...and that move is
4...e5!
The move that gets talked about in the books is the insipid 4..e3 which I've tried but it really doesn't pose the BDG Gambit experts any problems. But this 4...e5 move is the one that stops the BDG Gambit cold.
Does anybody have any explanation why this move isn't mentioned at all? And BTW...I'm curious to know whether this new Everyman published book The Blackmar Diemer Gambit discusses this particular move 4...e5 in declining the gambit.
I'm finding this an interesting issue with hidden lines that GM's know about but refuse to divulge for competitive reasons...but we're talking about common sense moves in the opening phases of the game like within the first 5 moves!
There's another line this one in the Scandinavian in which not ONE opening book bothers to discuss and it helps the Black side tremendously and for some reason is NOT mentioned. And here is the move.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 and at this point the "books" mention 4...Nf6 as the normal book move and not a single book I own deviates from this line. But there's a sideline not discussed which changes this whole line and helps Black and not even Jovanka Houska's book The Scandinavian discusses it...and here it is
4...e5!?.
Even the newer Christian Bauer book by Quality Chess doesn't mention this sideline for Black and his book specifically discusses the Qa5 variation in the Scandinavian. But this particular move is completely ignored.
Well, I've been having so many problems with accepting this pawn offer and end up lost within 20 moves. And then I remembered a comment my opponent actually told me the secret...and I've yet to see ANYONE mention this move. But I was told GM's have this move in hand and use it against the BDG Gambit experts...and that move is
4...e5!
The move that gets talked about in the books is the insipid 4..e3 which I've tried but it really doesn't pose the BDG Gambit experts any problems. But this 4...e5 move is the one that stops the BDG Gambit cold.
Does anybody have any explanation why this move isn't mentioned at all? And BTW...I'm curious to know whether this new Everyman published book The Blackmar Diemer Gambit discusses this particular move 4...e5 in declining the gambit.
I'm finding this an interesting issue with hidden lines that GM's know about but refuse to divulge for competitive reasons...but we're talking about common sense moves in the opening phases of the game like within the first 5 moves!
There's another line this one in the Scandinavian in which not ONE opening book bothers to discuss and it helps the Black side tremendously and for some reason is NOT mentioned. And here is the move.
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 and at this point the "books" mention 4...Nf6 as the normal book move and not a single book I own deviates from this line. But there's a sideline not discussed which changes this whole line and helps Black and not even Jovanka Houska's book The Scandinavian discusses it...and here it is
4...e5!?.
Even the newer Christian Bauer book by Quality Chess doesn't mention this sideline for Black and his book specifically discusses the Qa5 variation in the Scandinavian. But this particular move is completely ignored.
Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
It turns out the move 4...e5 is called the Anderssen Counterattack in the Scandinavian. However I find it unconscionable that the Everyman chess publication Starting Out: The Scandinavian couldn't find the pages to squeeze in this viable sideline. The difference between facing 4...e5 and 4...Nf6 is considerable. For one thing after the 4...e5 move order, the simple 5.Qe2 wins the e5 pawn due to the pin along the e file.
Why is this move order completely ignored in that book?! Even assuming it's considered infantile by chess professional standards it doesn't excuse the fact this simple line could have had at least merited a page or two with analysis. Would it have hurt them had they done so?
Why is this move order completely ignored in that book?! Even assuming it's considered infantile by chess professional standards it doesn't excuse the fact this simple line could have had at least merited a page or two with analysis. Would it have hurt them had they done so?
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tano-urayoan
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Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
with e5 you transpose back to the fantasy variation, but again what is your problem in the BDG?
Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
In all the chess books I've accumulated not one mentioned the 4...e5 move to decline the Sturdier Rasa/Blackmar Diemer Gambit. By the same token not a single chess book I have mentions the Anderssen Counterattack with ...e5 either in the Scandinavian. Why are these lines ignored in all the chess books on these openings? Even assuming they're not good why not mention them?
The Anderssen Counterattack in the Scandinavian Center Counter has over 200 games in my database. It's mystifying why this line is ignored. Neither Jovanka Houska's The Scandinavian book nor the new one by Christian Bauer mentions it. They briefly touch on the Blackmar Diemer Gambit as well but not a single mention about declining the gambit even if it's clearly shown that it can be done if one chooses to do so.
The Anderssen Counterattack in the Scandinavian Center Counter has over 200 games in my database. It's mystifying why this line is ignored. Neither Jovanka Houska's The Scandinavian book nor the new one by Christian Bauer mentions it. They briefly touch on the Blackmar Diemer Gambit as well but not a single mention about declining the gambit even if it's clearly shown that it can be done if one chooses to do so.
Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
If you don't believe me...explain why this Anderssen Counterattack game in the Scandinavian isn't referenced for inclusion for analysis by either the Jovanak Houska or Christian Bauer books on the Scandinavian?
[Event "Varna"]
[Site "Russia"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ivanchuk, V"]
[Black "Angelov, I"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01g"]
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 e5 5.dxe5 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4 8.a3
Nd4 9.Bb5+ c6 10.O-O Bxf3 11.axb4 Bxd1 12.bxa5 Bxc2 13.Ba4 Ne7 14.Bxc2
Nxc2 15.Ra4 Rd8 16.Ne4 Nf5 17.g4 Nfd4 18.Nd6+ Ke7 19.Bc3 c5 20.Nxb7 Rd5
21.Rc4 h5 22.Rxc5 Rxc5 23.Nxc5 hxg4 24.Kg2 Nf3 25.Rd1 Rxh2+ 26.Kg3 Ke8 27.
Ne4 Rh6 28.Kxg4 Nh4 29.Rc1 1-0
[Event "Varna"]
[Site "Russia"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ivanchuk, V"]
[Black "Angelov, I"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01g"]
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 e5 5.dxe5 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bg4 8.a3
Nd4 9.Bb5+ c6 10.O-O Bxf3 11.axb4 Bxd1 12.bxa5 Bxc2 13.Ba4 Ne7 14.Bxc2
Nxc2 15.Ra4 Rd8 16.Ne4 Nf5 17.g4 Nfd4 18.Nd6+ Ke7 19.Bc3 c5 20.Nxb7 Rd5
21.Rc4 h5 22.Rxc5 Rxc5 23.Nxc5 hxg4 24.Kg2 Nf3 25.Rd1 Rxh2+ 26.Kg3 Ke8 27.
Ne4 Rh6 28.Kxg4 Nh4 29.Rc1 1-0
Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
As you can see from looking at this game by Ivanchuk, this is extremely wild. But notice, 5.Qe2 would have stopped Black cold and forced Black on the defensive. All of that could have been given by analysis had both the Houska and Bauer books bothered to mention the Anderssen Counterattack in the Scandinavian. But I've clearly shown by this game the Anderssen Counterattack should have been mentioned as a sideline in the books. The lack of acknowledging this sideline is clearly inexcusable. But they can also be faulted for failing to mention the ...e5 line to declining the BDG gambit as well.
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tano-urayoan
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Re: Only way to avoid BDG Gambit for Black.
Why the authors will bother to show a dubious line at best? They have a limit scope and could not cover all possible continuations so why they need to waste pages in this variation, that does not refute anything.Hagen wrote:In all the chess books I've accumulated not one mentioned the 4...e5 move to decline the Sturdier Rasa/Blackmar Diemer Gambit. By the same token not a single chess book I have mentions the Anderssen Counterattack with ...e5 either in the Scandinavian. Why are these lines ignored in all the chess books on these openings? Even assuming they're not good why not mention them?
The Anderssen Counterattack in the Scandinavian Center Counter has over 200 games in my database. It's mystifying why this line is ignored. Neither Jovanka Houska's The Scandinavian book nor the new one by Christian Bauer mentions it. They briefly touch on the Blackmar Diemer Gambit as well but not a single mention about declining the gambit even if it's clearly shown that it can be done if one chooses to do so.