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kingliveson - Kappatoo

https://open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1121

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kingliveson - Kappatoo

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:16 am
by kingliveson
Anyone want to continue this opening? You can use all available resources at your disposal including Tianhe-1A.

[Event "Correspondence chess"]
[Site "open-chess.org"]
[Date "2011.02.14"]
[Round "1"]
[White "kingliveson"]
[Black "*"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "*"]
[TimeControl "*"]
[Termination "*"]
1. h3 e5 2. c3 d5 3. d4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. dxe5

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:47 am
by keoki010
kingliveson wrote:Anyone want to continue this opening? You can use all available resources at your disposal including Tianhe-1A.

[Event "Correspondence chess"]
[Site "open-chess.org"]
[Date "2011.02.14"]
[Round "1"]
[White "kingliveson"]
[Black "*"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A00"]
[Opening "*"]
[TimeControl "*"]
[Termination "*"]
1. h3 e5 2. c3 d5 3. d4 Nc6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. dxe5
Hmmm, looks like black should win with good play.

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:09 am
by Uly
Well, keoki, he gives you the chance to play black :)

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:24 am
by BB+
Is the question whether White can draw? I can tell you what Monte Carlo said, but then, you can probably do that yourself too.

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:06 am
by kingliveson
The problem is I don't think engines understand this opening well.

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:19 am
by BB+
OK, don't expect much, but 5... Nxe5, if 6 Nd2 then 6... c5

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:16 pm
by kingliveson
BB+ wrote:OK, don't expect much, but 5... Nxe5, if 6 Nd2 then 6... c5

There is a transposition that occurs whether 6 ..c5 or 6 .. bd6 is played. Houdini actually understands to a point how white can equalize by moving Bishop on e3, pawn on e2, and then white square bishop.

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:41 am
by User923005
BB+ wrote:OK, don't expect much, but 5... Nxe5, if 6 Nd2 then 6... c5

Code: Select all

05/18/2011 4:07:03 PM Level: 300 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Critter_1.01_64bit

 1 -                    
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Critter_1.01_64bit): c7-c5
    Not found in: 30:00
     2/2	00:00	         525	18,750	+0.24	Bc8-f5 Ng1-f3
     3/4	00:00	         979	33,758	+0.21	Bc8-f5 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Qd1-a4+ c7-c6 Nf3xe5 Bd6xe5 Be3xa7
     3/4	00:00	       1,258	41,933	+0.22	Bc8-d7 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Nf3xe5 Bd6xe5
     4/5	00:00	       1,623	54,100	+0.22	Bc8-d7 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Nf3xe5 Bd6xe5
     4/5	00:00	       2,426	78,258	+0.36	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 O-O Nf3xe5 Bd6xe5 Nd2-f3
     5/6	00:00	       3,202	100,062	+0.36	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 O-O Nf3xe5 Bd6xe5 Nd2-f3
     6/7	00:00	       4,397	122,138	+0.43	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5xf3+ Nd2xf3 O-O Qd1-d3 Bc8-d7
     7/10	00:00	       5,809	111,711	+0.42	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5xf3+ Nd2xf3 O-O Qd1-d3 Bc8-d7 Ra1-d1 c7-c5 Nf3-g5
     8/11	00:00	      11,015	46,476	+0.46	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Qd1-d3 h7-h6 Ra1-d1 Rf8-e8
     9/12	00:00	      18,640	55,147	+0.46	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Qd1-d3 h7-h6 Ra1-d1 Rf8-e8
    10/14	00:00	      36,712	94,618	+0.52	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Qd1-d3 h7-h6 Ra1-d1 Rf8-e8 Nb3-c5 Qd8-e7
    11/15	00:00	      73,543	178,502	+0.48	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Nb3-d4 h7-h6 Nd4-b5 Bc8-f5 Nb5xd6 Qd8xd6 Qd1-b3
    12/20-	00:00	     354,945	640,694	+0.39	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Nb3-d4 h7-h6 Nd4-b5 Bc8-f5 Nb5xd6 Qd8xd6 Qd1-b3
    12/26-	00:01	     728,572	959,910	+0.31	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Nd2-b3 O-O Nb3-d4 h7-h6 Nd4-b5 Bc8-f5 Nb5xd6 Qd8xd6 Qd1-b3
    12/26	00:01	     924,608	1,120,736	+0.34	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 b7-b5 g4-g5 Nf6-h5 Nd2-b3
    13/26	00:01	   1,062,289	1,203,045	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    14/26	00:01	   1,250,581	1,001,265	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    15/26	00:03	   1,791,316	676,223	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    16/29	00:04	   2,814,802	734,935	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    17/29	00:05	   5,793,566	1,222,271	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    18/33	00:07	   8,911,843	1,275,124	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    19/36	00:12	  15,988,279	1,370,149	+0.37	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    20/44-	00:56	 180,957,920	3,233,123	+0.28	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5-g6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 Bc8-e6 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Nd2-c4 Bd6-c7 Nc4-d2 Qd8-e7 Bf1-g2 h7-h6
    20/44	00:58	 189,389,051	3,255,226	+0.38	Bf8-d6 Ng1-f3 Ne5xf3+ Nd2xf3 O-O Be3-g5 Rf8-e8 e2-e3 c7-c6 Bf1-d3 h7-h6 Bg5xf6 Qd8xf6 O-O a7-a5 Bd3-c2 Ra8-a6 Qd1-e2 Ra6-b6 Ra1-b1 Bc8-e6 Rf1-d1 g7-g6 Rd1-d2
    21/45	01:21	 281,414,119	3,455,265	+0.35	Ne5-g6 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 b7-b6 Rh1-g1 Bc8-b7 Qc2-f5 Bb7-c6 g4-g5 Qd8-d7 Qf5xd7 Nf6xd7 h3-h4 Bc6-a4 b2-b3
    22/45	01:33	 322,975,429	3,480,713	+0.29	Ne5-g6 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 b7-b6 Rh1-g1 Bc8-e6 Bf1-g2 Qd8-e7 Nd2-f1 Be6-d7 g4-g5 Nf6-h5 Rd1xd5 Nh5-f4 Rd5-d1 Nf4xg2 Rg1xg2 Bd7xh3
    23/47	02:24	 528,371,830	3,667,389	+0.30	Ne5-g6 Ng1-f3 Bf8-d6 Qd1-c2 O-O O-O-O c7-c5 Kc1-b1 Rf8-e8 g2-g4 b7-b6 Rh1-g1 Qd8-e7 Be3-g5 Bc8-e6 e2-e3 a7-a6 Bf1-d3 b6-b5 Bd3-f5 b5-b4 Bf5xe6 Qe7xe6 Bg5xf6 Qe6xf6
    23/55+	05:51	1,485,295,288	4,234,711	+0.38	c7-c5
    23/55	06:14	1,587,052,972	4,240,781	+0.32	c7-c5 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 g2-g4 d5-d4 c3xd4 c5xd4 Be3-f4 h7-h5 g4-g5 Nf6-d5 Bf4-h2 Bf8-d6 Bh2xd6 Qd8xd6 Ra1-c1 O-O Nd2-b3 Bc8-d7 Nb3xd4 Ra8-c8 Nd4xc6 Bd7xc6 Qd1-d4 Rf8-e8 a2-a3 Qd6-f4 Qd4xf4 Nd5xf4 Rc1-c3
    24/55	09:26	2,466,993,625	4,354,476	+0.38	c7-c5 g2-g4 Ne5-c6 Bf1-g2 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3 Qd8-c7 Nf3-g5 Be6-d7 Qd1-c2 Bf8-d6 O-O-O h7-h6 Ng5-f3 O-O Kc1-b1 Ra8-e8 Rh1-g1 Nc6-e7 Rg1-h1 b7-b6 Qc2-d3 Ne7-g6 g4-g5 h6xg5 Nf3xg5 Ng6-f4
    25/57	18:11	4,977,080,325	4,561,562	+0.35	c7-c5 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Be3-f4 Bf8-d6 Bf4xd6 Qd8xd6 e2-e3 Bc8-f5 Bf1-b5 O-O Nf3-h4 Bf5-e6 O-O Rf8-e8 Nh4-f3 Be6-f5 Nf3-h4 Bf5-d7 Nh4-f3 Nc6-e5 Qd1-e2 a7-a6 Bb5xd7
    26/62	26:37	7,365,323,016	4,612,956	+0.30	c7-c5 Ng1-f3 Ne5-c6 Be3-f4 Bf8-d6 Bf4xd6 Qd8xd6 e2-e3 Bc8-f5 Bf1-b5 O-O Nf3-h4 Bf5-e6 O-O Rf8-e8 Nh4-f3 h7-h6 Qd1-c2 a7-a6 Bb5-d3 Ra8-c8 Ra1-d1 b7-b5 Bd3-f5 Be6xf5
   05/18/2011 5:37:32 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:30:00, Rated time: 30:00

0 of 1 matching moves
05/18/2011 5:37:33 PM, Total time: 1:30:30 AM
Rated time: 30:00 = 1800 Seconds

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:45 am
by User923005
Analysis of the original record by Stockfish proved fruitless:
r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/2n2n2/3pP3/8/2P1B2P/PP2PPP1/RN1QKBNR b KQkq - acd 33/50; acn 4881648094; acs 1550; bm Nxe5; ce 60; pv Nxe5 Nd2 Bd6 Ngf3 Ng6 Qc2 O-O O-O-O Re8 c4 c6 Kb1 b5 c5 Bc7 Nd4 Bd7 g4 a5 Nf5 Bxf5 gxf5 Nf4 Nf3 Qd7 Nd4 a4 Qc1 Qe7;

But application of Critter, Stockfish and Houdini to the forward position shown below provided the following:
r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/5n2/3pn3/8/2P1B2P/PP1NPPP1/R2QKBNR b KQkq - acd 26/62; acn 7365323016; acs 1597; bm c5; ce 30; pv c5 Ngf3 Nc6 Bf4 Bd6 Bxd6 Qxd6 e3 Bf5 Bb5 O-O Nh4 Be6 O-O Rfe8 Nhf3 h6 Qc2 a6 Bd3 Rac8 Rad1 b5 Bf5 Bxf5;
r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/5n2/3pn3/8/2P1B2P/PP1NPPP1/R2QKBNR b KQkq - acd 27/69; acn 7505334751; acs 1302; bm Bd6; ce 28; pv Bd6 Ngf3 Nxf3+ Nxf3 c6 Bg5 h6 Bxf6 Qxf6 e3 O-O Bd3 Re8 O-O a5 a4 Be6 Qe2 g6 Rad1 Rad8 Bc2;
r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/5n2/3pn3/8/2P1B2P/PP1NPPP1/R2QKBNR b KQkq - acd 32/43; acn 4757055482; acs 1577; bm Bd6; ce 52; pv Bd6 Ngf3 Ng6 Qc2 O-O O-O-O c6 Bd4 Qe7 Kb1 Rd8 Bxf6 Qxf6 e3 a5 Bd3 a4 h4 Bd7 h5 Nf8 c4 a3 Qc3 Bf5 e4 Qxc3 bxc3 dxe4 Nxe4 Bxe4 Bxe4;

I am of the opinion that both Bd6 and c5 are playable and lead to a very small advantage for black.

Re: kingliveson - ?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:49 pm
by Kappatoo
Is this game in progress now, with BB+ as black?

I am curious to hear from kinliveson why he chose this starting position.
I just found that this line is in Jiri Dufek's book which, I think, came with Rybka 4. It seems to have been played hunreds of times - I strongly suspect not one of them by humans. (Frankly speaking, none of white's moves up to here makes much sense - no offense intended.)
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