OpenChess

Still waiting for him to show a +400 elo gain in one year, but more importantly, _any_ ideas that are in common between Crafty and Ippolit/Robolito, and which were not in versions of Crafty prior to robo's release. I know it will be a long wait, but I thought I would at least hit the "prompt" button since I am not the one that made the statement in the first place.

This is probably non of my business but, one cannot help it. Ed, many in the computer chess community have much respect for you and your contributions. My advice is withdraw from the public record those un-quantifiable comments that prompted this thread.


Franklin

hyatt wrote:Still waiting for him to show a +400 elo gain in one year, but more importantly, _any_ ideas that are in common between Crafty and Ippolit/Robolito, and which were not in versions of Crafty prior to robo's release. I know it will be a long wait, but I thought I would at least hit the "prompt" button since I am not the one that made the statement in the first place.

Haven't said that. I asked you if you were going to remove any idea in Crafty that comes from Vas's legacy (his 300-400 elo contribution to Fruit 2.1). If you say there is none in Crafty then I don't believe you.

I think Rebel is hiding something and is afraid to be discovered. he is trying to twist all about rybka issue into this .

I'm saying this because in the way he is acting trying to defend VAS

Rebel wrote:

hyatt wrote:Still waiting for him to show a +400 elo gain in one year, but more importantly, _any_ ideas that are in common between Crafty and Ippolit/Robolito, and which were not in versions of Crafty prior to robo's release. I know it will be a long wait, but I thought I would at least hit the "prompt" button since I am not the one that made the statement in the first place.

Haven't said that. I asked you if you were going to remove any idea in Crafty that comes from Vas's legacy (his 300-400 elo contribution to Fruit 2.1). If you say there is none in Crafty then I don't believe you.

I have already answered that once. There are _no_ ideas from Rybka or derivatives in current or past Crafty's, unless they were there before Rybka existed. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. I asked for an example. I seem to be getting nothing but shuffling. All you have to do is find something in Crafty that is similar to ip/robo*. I will figure out what version number matches with the release of those two, and then post the version number. At that point, others can verify that the idea in question was in a pre-rybka crafty version, or wasn't present. It is an easy thing to do. And it will either verify your statement, or verify that it is nonsense.

But it is up to you to offer something. I am not going to compare current Crafty to robo* or ip* myself, it is a waste of time.

your serve...

BTW, here is the original quote, just to keep things in context:

"So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?"

and then when I asked for data:

"You should not twist my words, the issue here is the stolen legacy of Vas, the stolen ideas good for 300-400 elo points. If you are going to argue the big elo jumps Crafty made had nothing to do with the stolen idea's from Vas then it's more likely the Earth is flat after all. "

So, time to put up or retract. We have two contradicting statements on the table. One is false. Perhaps it is me. Just show me where.

But for the record, it appears that Crafty has gained somewhere betweeen 250 and 350 elo over the past 5 years. 200 of them over two versions where the eval and search were _completely_ retuned piece by piece with cluster testing. It is a lot of data to go thru, but 22.2 seems to be the version that passed Fruit in my testing. The current version is 23.5 and is about 200 Elo better than Fruit in my testing. That last gap of about +200 covers 2008 to 2011, 3+ years. The previous 100-200 covered a year or two previous to that.

This is going to be long I am afraid....

I downloaded the latest Crafty (version 23.4) and the search exactly behaves as the Ippo's, Robo's, Fire's etc. quite contrary to previous versions.

And you said it yourself, just yesterday in CCC, the relevant quote in question:

S. Taylor wrote: So the ippo or robbo (in official events, till now) would be rybka itself, wouldn't it?

Bob Hyatt wrote: Unproven, but suspected, so probably yes. Of course, there is the same idea for Fruit/Rybka.

So you took contaminated ideas you suspected they were the origin of the hacked Rybka and used them in Crafty.

And you know what?

It does not matter.

It's not the issue.

The hacker is hacked and his secrets are in the open for everybody to see. I can even see the irony of that. Use it by all means. The whole thing has been so ugly let's make the best of it. Programmers can profit. It's good for the progress of computer chess.

What I very much dislike is the moral side and by that I mean you. The verdict on Vas is right. And the penalties are harsh. While every other programmer involved is silent and show some empathy for the total abasement in public among his colleagues, his fans, his co-workers, his consumers and on top of that in the mainstream media. It's a punishment for life. That kind of shame. It's enough.

But not for you. You will not rest to trample Vas until you have squeezed the last drop of blood from his vessels while in the meantime using parts of his stolen legacy. I don't know what is more ugly.

After all this whole issue is about moral and ethics.

Rebel wrote:I downloaded the latest Crafty (version 23.4) and the search exactly behaves as the Ippo's, Robo's, Fire's etc. quite contrary to previous versions.

Hello Rebel, this is a very serious allegation. If true and supportable, Hyatt/Crafty would be banned for life from the WCCC. Would you please provide the evidence you have obtained. The positions you have analyzed and the eval output, would be a good place to start.

Rebel wrote:After all this whole issue is about moral and ethics.

If so, then you really should support your assertions with evidence. If your accusations are not supported they would be interpreted as frivolous, vexatious, slanderous and defaming to Hyatt/Crafty.

Cordially,

Sean

Sean Evans wrote:Hello Rebel, this is a very serious allegation. If true and supportable, Hyatt/Crafty would be banned for life from the WCCC.

There is nothing wrong Sean taking idea's from freeware source code.

I downloaded the latest Crafty (version 23.4) and the search exactly behaves as the Ippo's, Robo's, Fire's etc. quite contrary to previous versions.

Perhaps I am anserine (gooselike) to take this seriously, but I will look at relevant search.c files and get back to you (probably Friday) with an opinion. The latest Crafty version prior to Fruit 2.1 is 19.19 I think, but as you say IPPOLIT, it seems that 22.9 should suffice. Maybe 22.1, as that version pre-dates Rybka 3 (there's a "strange" 10-month gap from 22.1 in Jan 2008 to 22.2 in Nov 2008, and R3 was Aug 2008).

The Dutch seem to keep me busy, as I see elsewhere that Zappa is now also hearsayed to be Fruit-ish (except the king safety)...

Rebel wrote:There is nothing wrong Sean taking idea's from freeware source code.

Ed, I agree with you, taking an idea, such as "MinMax" is okay. If you plagiarize it is not okay. You stated the following:

Rebel wrote:I downloaded the latest Crafty (version 23.4) and the search exactly behaves as the Ippo's, Robo's, Fire's etc. quite contrary to previous versions.

If Crafty's eval behaves "exactly" like Rybka/Ippo* then you are implying plagiarism.

Cordially,

Sean