Interesting and real Talkchess posts...or not!

[BB+]

I agree that Don Dailey has typically been reasonable about the whole deal. He has his own way of interpreting the facts/data as they are uncovered, and I occasionally find his argumentative method not to my taste, but I can't imagine he would adopt a blatant double standard with the Fruit/Rybka/IPPOLIT issues. [I could say something similar about Ed Schröder -- he was a passionate defender of VR when he thought he was being raliroaded on limited data, but once more evidence was made available he was willing to revise his opinion].

As for his trilemma (not the best word, but), I don't find "reverse engineering" to be the most relevant issue (and "heavily" is also a bit of scare-word), but would phrase it in terms of "originality" -- and I think I've made it clear before that to me IPPOLIT is not sufficiently "original" from the standards of computer chess (as opposed to legal standards, where I'm still guessing that is OK). As for the ethics of building upon something previous, it depends on how the "community" values competition, collaboration, etc. See my recent quotation about Rome copying Greece. [Perhaps there's also: a time for copying, and a time to be original...].

Incidentally, I've been in touch with Fabien (and 4-5 other programmers, some commercial) about the GPL issues and more. [There's some open letter being prepared, and they want me to reveal my identity, etc.--- guess I better start preparing for the TalkChess threatmongers].

[orgfert]

I agree that Don Dailey has typically been reasonable about the whole deal. He has his own way of interpreting the facts/data as they are uncovered, and I occasionally find his argumentative method not to my taste, but I can't imagine he would adopt a blatant double standard with the Fruit/Rybka/IPPOLIT issues. [I could say something similar about Ed Schröder -- he was a passionate defender of VR when he thought he was being raliroaded on limited data, but once more evidence was made available he was willing to revise his opinion].

As for his trilemma (not the best word, but), I don't find "reverse engineering" to be the most relevant issue (and "heavily" is also a bit of scare-word), but would phrase it in terms of "originality" -- and I think I've made it clear before that to me IPPOLIT is not sufficiently "original" from the standards of computer chess (as opposed to legal standards, where I'm still guessing that is OK). As for the ethics of building upon something previous, it depends on how the "community" values competition, collaboration, etc. See my recent quotation about Rome copying Greece. [Perhaps there's also: a time for copying, and a time to be original...].

Incidentally, I've been in touch with Fabien (and 4-5 other programmers, some commercial) about the GPL issues and more. [There's some open letter being prepared, and they want me to reveal my identity, etc.--- guess I better start preparing for the TalkChess threatmongers].

CCRL list contributors are an interesting study. Whatever one wants to say about their rendering of an Elo statistic as meaningless a measure as possible (with great scientific precision no less) one cannot deny they have succeeded in elevating their own self-esteem which in the realm of mental health is considered a worthy goal.

[thorstenczub]

CCRL list contributors are an interesting study. Whatever one wants to say about their rendering of an Elo statistic as meaningless a measure as possible (with great scientific precision no less) one cannot deny they have succeeded in elevating their own self-esteem which in the realm of mental health is considered a worthy goal.

mubarak, soharto, ...
they all "elevated their own self-esteem which in the realm of mental health is considered a worthy goal."

there are many horrible things in the world one could put on a list together with CCRL.

if this makes you happy ... ok.
so it is.

[kingliveson]

I agree that Don Dailey has typically been reasonable about the whole deal. He has his own way of interpreting the facts/data as they are uncovered, and I occasionally find his argumentative method not to my taste, but I can't imagine he would adopt a blatant double standard with the Fruit/Rybka/IPPOLIT issues. [I could say something similar about Ed Schröder -- he was a passionate defender of VR when he thought he was being raliroaded on limited data, but once more evidence was made available he was willing to revise his opinion].

As for his trilemma (not the best word, but), I don't find "reverse engineering" to be the most relevant issue (and "heavily" is also a bit of scare-word), but would phrase it in terms of "originality" -- and I think I've made it clear before that to me IPPOLIT is not sufficiently "original" from the standards of computer chess (as opposed to legal standards, where I'm still guessing that is OK). As for the ethics of building upon something previous, it depends on how the "community" values competition, collaboration, etc. See my recent quotation about Rome copying Greece. [Perhaps there's also: a time for copying, and a time to be original...].

Incidentally, I've been in touch with Fabien (and 4-5 other programmers, some commercial) about the GPL issues and more. [There's some open letter being prepared, and they want me to reveal my identity, etc.--- guess I better start preparing for the TalkChess threatmongers].

I think that most reasonable people who have gotten a chance to examine the Rybka debacle have come to conclude there's enough that something is fishy.

The Ippolit situation in which Don was more interested in discussing seem even to be more challenging because this is totally new territory for computer chess. What is going to be interesting is whether those mostly on the Ippolit side would look at the circumstance and render fair opinions with personal feelings set aside.

Revealing your identity is a personal choice, and I could care less. I myself usually am a private person so I understand. Zach also has said he met you in person, and that's good enough -- unless he himself is part of a larger conspiracy...

[Adam Hair]

I agree that Don Dailey has typically been reasonable about the whole deal. He has his own way of interpreting the facts/data as they are uncovered, and I occasionally find his argumentative method not to my taste, but I can't imagine he would adopt a blatant double standard with the Fruit/Rybka/IPPOLIT issues. [I could say something similar about Ed Schröder -- he was a passionate defender of VR when he thought he was being raliroaded on limited data, but once more evidence was made available he was willing to revise his opinion].

As for his trilemma (not the best word, but), I don't find "reverse engineering" to be the most relevant issue (and "heavily" is also a bit of scare-word), but would phrase it in terms of "originality" -- and I think I've made it clear before that to me IPPOLIT is not sufficiently "original" from the standards of computer chess (as opposed to legal standards, where I'm still guessing that is OK). As for the ethics of building upon something previous, it depends on how the "community" values competition, collaboration, etc. See my recent quotation about Rome copying Greece. [Perhaps there's also: a time for copying, and a time to be original...].

Incidentally, I've been in touch with Fabien (and 4-5 other programmers, some commercial) about the GPL issues and more. [There's some open letter being prepared, and they want me to reveal my identity, etc.--- guess I better start preparing for the TalkChess threatmongers].

Unfortunately, there are threatmongers on every side of every issue in the general community.

In general, many of us would like to deal with people as openly as possible on the internet. That, of course, is
why the use of real names is appreciated. However, I understand your reason for not doing so. And the way you
have presented your thoughts, with actual evidence to support your opinions ( evidence - imagine that ),
should be appreciated by everyone, whether they agree with you or not. Anyone who would threaten you would
be showing the community their inadequacies as a human being. Hopefully the fools will refrain.

[thorstenczub]

we can be very happy that people like Rolf Tueschen, Chris Conkie and Sean Evans , Skinner and Speight and many others are still posting in CCC/CTF instead of posting here.

I feel regret when i see bob hyatt or larry kaufmann or don dailey or houdart have to "talk" with these guys.

That was the way it was in RGCC.

these people completely saturate any discussion and make it impossible to dicuss at all.

but --- as long as they discuss there, we can discuss here in harmony and peace

[Harvey Williamson]

these people completely saturate any discussion and make it impossible to dicuss at all.

but --- as long as they discuss there, we can discuss here in harmony and peace

I would call that Open Chess - rather than trollchess whenever you enter a thread.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

these people completely saturate any discussion and make it impossible to dicuss at all.

but --- as long as they discuss there, we can discuss here in harmony and peace

I would call that Open Chess - rather than trollchess whenever you enter a thread.

oh, the irony...

[Harvey Williamson]

these people completely saturate any discussion and make it impossible to dicuss at all.

but --- as long as they discuss there, we can discuss here in harmony and peace

I would call that Open Chess - rather than trollchess whenever you enter a thread.

oh, the irony...

[thorstenczub]

these people completely saturate any discussion and make it impossible to dicuss at all.

but --- as long as they discuss there, we can discuss here in harmony and peace

I would call that Open Chess - rather than trollchess whenever you enter a thread.

Na du gehörst doch mit in die Runde der Stammelvertreter und der Wichtig-wichtig-Tuer.
Du integrierst dich doch sehr gut in diese Melange aus Conkies und Skinners und Tueschens, Evans und Crackens. Dafuer brauchst du dir noch nichtmals ne Peruecke aussetzen.

Wenn es irgendwo auf der ganzen Schachcomputerwelt eine unsinnige Regel durchzufuehren gilt, bist du doch immer mit an der Front der Soldateska die die Exekutionen durchfuehrt.
Wahrscheinlich berichtest du dann nachher in deinem Radiosender darueber.