FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

General discussion about computer chess...
terrapene
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by terrapene » Sun May 17, 2015 10:30 am

Rebel wrote:
BB+ wrote: I don't see any reason to continue posting on this matter. As long as you are arguing about "code theft", and/or comparing Rybka/Fruit to direct clones, the relevance of your work to the ICGA investigation and decision is almost nil.
Then don't deny the reality of that. You are relative new in this world. I have dwelled among them for 25 years. I know them personally. I know what moves them, what upsets them, pretty much the same as me. And I have been in your VIG camp remember? I know exactly how they think, what they think, also about this case, cryptic rule #2 became the stick to beat Vas for copying Fruit. It's what they believed and I can give you the public quotes of Zach, Bob, Lefler (to name a few) that proofs it. And even you, although more careful have hinted to that, for example:
Rebel, you have dwelled among Fabien Letuozey for 25 years?
i conjecture he would accuse you of lying.

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Chris Whittington
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Chris Whittington » Sun May 17, 2015 10:40 am

Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote: I would have been tempted myself to simply take that final panel recommendation, "program is disqualified from future competitions until it is proven to comply with rule 2."
I can live with that. Provided it comes with it softened version of the verdict. Surely the absence of guidance by not recognizing the times were changing (Dylan) is on the account of the ICGA.
That COULD have ended up as a warning if he immediately contacted the ICGA and agreed on a 3rd party to do the examination. But when he didn't even try to deal with the process, there was no real expectation on the board's part that he would undertake that process either...
Sure, like Vas said, he didn't want to face his accusers (the angry programmers) but the final arbiter, see the correspondence. And as indicated in the (refused) appeal he was willing to hand over his sources for inspection to a trustable expert. In this case that would had been version 4.1.

About candidates:
1. Mark suggested Jonathan. While he is a great and knowledgable guy I would first like to know if he kept up with CC and how it developed especially how internet has affected (or shall I say infected) CC. In the old days they could bicker and fight over the use of ideas. We laugh about that nowadays. So Jonathan will need to have a good understanding how programmers nowadays think. In case he didn't keep up than I would prefer Mark instead. Not sure if Vas would like that :lol: but I could lobby for it.

2. Chrilly. Okay, I understand he left. Doesn't mean I could try to persuade him.

Other ones?
I you are actually talking about creating such a "third party" to examine the case (all aspects) then I argue strongly about giving it to one person. There is no transparency to the decision, the WHY is essentially unknown, so why would anyone disagreeing accept it? Such a third party would need to be a group one, with ALL discussions and decision process OPEN. Interested parties should submit word-limited papers to it (possibly no more than 400 words) and the group discuss them. It is unlikely there is any need for "more evidence", evidence abounds already, its interpretation that is needed. The group will be biased, but is should be balanced in bias with known neutrals holding the balance. Noisy people who talk too much should NOT be on it, they are limited to the 400 word paper and answering any questions that arise, but they don't have right of posting. Group, say of five or so, should be sourced from the forums, people who have intelligently expressed comments in the past. I can think of a few right now, including some neutrals. Group forum open to read by anyone.

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Rebel
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Rebel » Sun May 17, 2015 10:50 am

hyatt wrote:
Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote:As far as "who writes these rules?" Isn't that a question that is answered when it is asked? The organization that USES the rules?
I have problems with rules that are an obstacle for progress.

The new rule #2 has complicated matters even more.

It's like the farmers in the beginning of the 20th century protesting against the machines that replaced the harrow and the hayfork. They went banrupt. In the meantime the world moved forward.

Then why don't YOU come up with a rule 2 that you like? It is pretty pointless to keep saying "the rule is outdated." Point out what is wrong and how it should be changed. Maybe you will convince enough to make it happen. As it is, NOBODY knows what "your rule 2" would contain. Farmers and horse-drawn vs tractor-drawn notwithstanding...
As already indicated in my long conversation with David in September/October 2011 I suggested a pre-doping test like in regular sports. He didn't like the idea and said he would only act on a complaint. Again this annoying avoiding taking any form of responsibility behaviour. The so to say "three wise monkeys" philosophy leaving programmers in the dark what is allowed and what's not in a world of exploding and free knowledge at your fingertips. No guidance. Nothing.

The CSVN wasn't deaf to the idea and the old chairman Cock de Gorter took the initiative using the SYM tool as independent arbiter for participation. The new leadership (Marcel & Richard) moved things to a new level, improved the software and fine-tuned the procedure. Perfect? No. Like in cycling and other sports they will have to adapt and adapt to new situations as cheaters will find new ways, but they are ready for it. Ask them, share knowledge.

terrapene
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by terrapene » Sun May 17, 2015 10:51 am

Rebel wrote:
BB+ wrote: I don't see any reason to continue posting on this matter. As long as you are arguing about "code theft", and/or comparing Rybka/Fruit to direct clones, the relevance of your work to the ICGA investigation and decision is almost nil.
Then don't deny the reality of that. You are relative new in this world. I have dwelled among them for 25 years. I know them personally. I know what moves them, what upsets them, pretty much the same as me. And I have been in your VIG camp remember? I know exactly how they think, what they think, also about this case, cryptic rule #2 became the stick to beat Vas for copying Fruit. It's what they believed and I can give you the public quotes of Zach, Bob, Lefler (to name a few) that proofs it. And even you, although more careful have hinted to that, for example:
Rebel, you have dwelled among Fabien Letuozey for 25 years?
i conjecture he would accuse you of lying.

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Rebel
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Rebel » Sun May 17, 2015 11:01 am

Chris Whittington wrote:
Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote: I would have been tempted myself to simply take that final panel recommendation, "program is disqualified from future competitions until it is proven to comply with rule 2."
I can live with that. Provided it comes with it softened version of the verdict. Surely the absence of guidance by not recognizing the times were changing (Dylan) is on the account of the ICGA.
That COULD have ended up as a warning if he immediately contacted the ICGA and agreed on a 3rd party to do the examination. But when he didn't even try to deal with the process, there was no real expectation on the board's part that he would undertake that process either...
Sure, like Vas said, he didn't want to face his accusers (the angry programmers) but the final arbiter, see the correspondence. And as indicated in the (refused) appeal he was willing to hand over his sources for inspection to a trustable expert. In this case that would had been version 4.1.

About candidates:
1. Mark suggested Jonathan. While he is a great and knowledgable guy I would first like to know if he kept up with CC and how it developed especially how internet has affected (or shall I say infected) CC. In the old days they could bicker and fight over the use of ideas. We laugh about that nowadays. So Jonathan will need to have a good understanding how programmers nowadays think. In case he didn't keep up than I would prefer Mark instead. Not sure if Vas would like that :lol: but I could lobby for it.

2. Chrilly. Okay, I understand he left. Doesn't mean I could try to persuade him.

Other ones?
I you are actually talking about creating such a "third party" to examine the case (all aspects) then I argue strongly about giving it to one person. There is no transparency to the decision, the WHY is essentially unknown, so why would anyone disagreeing accept it? Such a third party would need to be a group one, with ALL discussions and decision process OPEN. Interested parties should submit word-limited papers to it (possibly no more than 400 words) and the group discuss them. It is unlikely there is any need for "more evidence", evidence abounds already, its interpretation that is needed. The group will be biased, but is should be balanced in bias with known neutrals holding the balance. Noisy people who talk too much should NOT be on it, they are limited to the 400 word paper and answering any questions that arise, but they don't have right of posting. Group, say of five or so, should be sourced from the forums, people who have intelligently expressed comments in the past. I can think of a few right now, including some neutrals. Group forum open to read by anyone.
Complicated.........

And, no consequences for the ICGA?

terrapene
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by terrapene » Sun May 17, 2015 11:10 am

Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote:
Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote: Doesn't that say EVERYTHING here? "Soren (a non-programmer)" getting involved in a technical discussion that can ONLY be understood by programmers. :) Of course that explains the complete lack of veracity in his "article". He should also write an article explaining why direct connections between a computer and human brain tissue can not be done, he'd probably know JUST AS MUCH about that specific topic so in his world he would be well-qualified to explain that to the "non-technical readers" I presume?
Have you read it? What about the criticism on rule #2?

http://en.chessbase.com/post/a-gro-misc ... -part-one-

For a non-specialist, including tournament directors and other ICGA board members, the flaws in Rule 2 might not be so obvious. However, to begin to understand the problem with Rule 2 one can start by acknowledging the truth contained within Rajlich’s remark on this topic:

When two modern top chess programs play against each other maybe 95% of the programs are algorithmically the same. What is classing is the other 5%.

Putting it bluntly, Rule 2 has become obsolete. It is completely vague or unrealistic on critical points that have emerged in recent years, or have always existed but were not as well understood in the past. Years ago, because of the way chess programs were traditionally developed, it was much easier to identify fraudulent entries and programmer-poseurs. Perhaps in that era Rule 2 was quite sufficient to expel entries not meeting originality standards. But, as will be shown, times have changed in computer chess and some of the old standards have been undermined or supplanted due to advances in information technology.

To make Rule 2’s absurdity as clear as possible, let me pose some straightforward questions:

•Given the great algorithmic overlap between modern chess programs, what is the definitional distinction between “original” and “non-original” work?

•A modern computer chess program can consist of tens of thousands of lines of code. Which of these lines can a programmer feel certain are in public domain and therefore exempt from Rule 2, and which are not?

•What exactly is meant by “game playing code” and on what basis does the ICGA make its distinction?

•What exactly is the definition of a “close derivative”? Is this phrase entirely a “we know it when we see it” construct, and if not, then what sensible, consistent, well-defined and articulated principles is such a determination based upon?

•Does Rule 2 require all competitors to maintain a copy of any source code they used in competition for an indefinite number of years?

•Can Rule 2 be invoked after tournaments are completed without any time limitation whatsoever? (In law, there is a defense called laches, which certainly applies to the Rajlich/Rybka case.)

• Finally, what safeguards exist to prevent ex post facto interpretations of rules which are not fully consistent with what competitors understood at the time the tournament took place?

It seems to me rather imperative that a tournament billing itself a “world championship” have crystal-clear rules. These rules should evolve in response to circumstances, contain well-defined procedures and credible enforcement mechanisms, and be designed to protect the integrity of the competition and the title.

Just random, uninformed noise.
As Thorsten used to say Pah! :lol:

It's hopelessly outdated as I indicated a few posts back as is the new rule #2. When Miguel went over it at Talkchess and ended his musings with "Who writes these rules?" the silence was deafening.
Rebel, since when is miguel an expert?
he is not even a icga member afaik, so his story is worth a broken umbrella.

the problem with the icga rules, is that crooks try to beat them.
noone can stop the rain once it is thundering down, you need to act prior.
the purpose of the rule #2 should be to set a clear door notice, cheaters need not apply.
and when they sneak past the bouncer, défenestration is the terminal result.

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Chris Whittington
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Chris Whittington » Sun May 17, 2015 11:21 am

Rebel wrote:
Chris Whittington wrote:
Rebel wrote:
hyatt wrote: I would have been tempted myself to simply take that final panel recommendation, "program is disqualified from future competitions until it is proven to comply with rule 2."
I can live with that. Provided it comes with it softened version of the verdict. Surely the absence of guidance by not recognizing the times were changing (Dylan) is on the account of the ICGA.
That COULD have ended up as a warning if he immediately contacted the ICGA and agreed on a 3rd party to do the examination. But when he didn't even try to deal with the process, there was no real expectation on the board's part that he would undertake that process either...
Sure, like Vas said, he didn't want to face his accusers (the angry programmers) but the final arbiter, see the correspondence. And as indicated in the (refused) appeal he was willing to hand over his sources for inspection to a trustable expert. In this case that would had been version 4.1.

About candidates:
1. Mark suggested Jonathan. While he is a great and knowledgable guy I would first like to know if he kept up with CC and how it developed especially how internet has affected (or shall I say infected) CC. In the old days they could bicker and fight over the use of ideas. We laugh about that nowadays. So Jonathan will need to have a good understanding how programmers nowadays think. In case he didn't keep up than I would prefer Mark instead. Not sure if Vas would like that :lol: but I could lobby for it.

2. Chrilly. Okay, I understand he left. Doesn't mean I could try to persuade him.

Other ones?
I you are actually talking about creating such a "third party" to examine the case (all aspects) then I argue strongly about giving it to one person. There is no transparency to the decision, the WHY is essentially unknown, so why would anyone disagreeing accept it? Such a third party would need to be a group one, with ALL discussions and decision process OPEN. Interested parties should submit word-limited papers to it (possibly no more than 400 words) and the group discuss them. It is unlikely there is any need for "more evidence", evidence abounds already, its interpretation that is needed. The group will be biased, but is should be balanced in bias with known neutrals holding the balance. Noisy people who talk too much should NOT be on it, they are limited to the 400 word paper and answering any questions that arise, but they don't have right of posting. Group, say of five or so, should be sourced from the forums, people who have intelligently expressed comments in the past. I can think of a few right now, including some neutrals. Group forum open to read by anyone.
Complicated.........

And, no consequences for the ICGA?
It would have nothing to do with the ICGA, it would be a forums created process. Stockfish is a forums created process , if you think about it. ICGA can choose whether to agree with the idea and go along with its conclusions (if any) or not, doesn't really matter what they do. I think you place too much emphasis on what ONE lone person (Levy) who really is out of comp chess for many many years, thinks, or wants. So what to what Levy thinks? Does he know, any better than any random forum reader? No.

If Levy/ICGA want to negotiate with Vas the consequences or otherwise of a decision reversal (if that's what it happens) then they know who to talk to.

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun May 17, 2015 11:32 am

Rebel wrote: The CSVN wasn't deaf to the idea and the old chairman Cock de Gorter took the initiative using the SYM tool as independent arbiter for participation. The new leadership (Marcel & Richard) moved things to a new level, improved the software and fine-tuned the procedure. Perfect? No. Like in cycling and other sports they will have to adapt and adapt to new situations as cheaters will find new ways, but they are ready for it. Ask them, share knowledge.
This tool is useful for giving an indication. What happens next when a high similarity is found? There was one case when a program entering the CSVN tournament gave a higher than expected result. Source code was asked for and provided. The program was then passed as being ok. However no attempt was made to prove that the source code matched the engine that was playing. The provided source should be compiled and compared to the exe that is playing in the tournament.

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Chris Whittington
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Chris Whittington » Sun May 17, 2015 11:50 am

Harvey Williamson wrote:
Rebel wrote: The CSVN wasn't deaf to the idea and the old chairman Cock de Gorter took the initiative using the SYM tool as independent arbiter for participation. The new leadership (Marcel & Richard) moved things to a new level, improved the software and fine-tuned the procedure. Perfect? No. Like in cycling and other sports they will have to adapt and adapt to new situations as cheaters will find new ways, but they are ready for it. Ask them, share knowledge.
This tool is useful for giving an indication. What happens next when a high similarity is found? There was one case when a program entering the CSVN tournament gave a higher than expected result. Source code was asked for and provided. The program was then passed as being ok. However no attempt was made to prove that the source code matched the engine that was playing. The provided source should be compiled and compared to the exe that is playing in the tournament.
Why don't you try and get back to a more friendly computer chess? You are not the FBI. Some guy gives CSVN his source when asked, they look at it and say ok. But this is not good enough? This is during a tournament - there is time pressure - you want to check every last thing like some prissy law enforcement agency? If CSVN decide to believe the guy, having seen source, WTF are you to challenge them? Get real and get reasonable and stop creating trouble, as it is you go down in history as one of the prime movers in the biggest and most unpleasant and unnecessary affairs in computer chess, all to get yourself a title it would seem. It's only a game. Of chess. Between computers. Not such a big deal for the nasty, suspicious stuff. Is it?

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: FIDE Rules on ICGA - Rybka controversy

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun May 17, 2015 12:00 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:
Harvey Williamson wrote:
Rebel wrote: The CSVN wasn't deaf to the idea and the old chairman Cock de Gorter took the initiative using the SYM tool as independent arbiter for participation. The new leadership (Marcel & Richard) moved things to a new level, improved the software and fine-tuned the procedure. Perfect? No. Like in cycling and other sports they will have to adapt and adapt to new situations as cheaters will find new ways, but they are ready for it. Ask them, share knowledge.
This tool is useful for giving an indication. What happens next when a high similarity is found? There was one case when a program entering the CSVN tournament gave a higher than expected result. Source code was asked for and provided. The program was then passed as being ok. However no attempt was made to prove that the source code matched the engine that was playing. The provided source should be compiled and compared to the exe that is playing in the tournament.
Why don't you try and get back to a more friendly computer chess? You are not the FBI. Some guy gives CSVN his source when asked, they look at it and say ok. But this is not good enough? This is during a tournament - there is time pressure - you want to check every last thing like some prissy law enforcement agency? If CSVN decide to believe the guy, having seen source, WTF are you to challenge them? Get real and get reasonable and stop creating trouble, as it is you go down in history as one of the prime movers in the biggest and most unpleasant and unnecessary affairs in computer chess, all to get yourself a title it would seem. It's only a game. Of chess. Between computers. Not such a big deal for the nasty, suspicious stuff. Is it?
So any old source code can be provided and no comparison to what is actually playing will be made? Thanks for your useful reply, as always. btw the similarity test is conducted before the tournament not during.

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