The cat's out of the bag

General discussion about computer chess...
Sentinel
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Real Name: Milos Stanisavljevic

Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by Sentinel » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:24 pm

BB+ wrote:Another option would be to query outside expertise. There's got to be some quality book-makers around who would be willing to spend the time (3-5 hours?) to collate 56 (times 3, plus a few more for the Elite match) playable opening positions for a season's worth of games, especially now that TCEC has gone big-time. I don't see how this could fail to improve on random PGN selections. You could also open it up to the public via a poll somehow.
The problem with known, non-random openings is that engines can be tuned for them. So if TCEC gets significant level of popularity, authors might consider it worth tuning. By using predefined openings, better tuned for a specific openings, but not generally better engine could win.
I see this as a much more serious problem than maybe slightly unbalanced openings.

Edit: The good example for this is Rybka and Noomen suit for which Rybka is tuned so it gets 30 Elo better performance than with a proper non-tuned suit.

BB+
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by BB+ » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:35 pm

The problem with known, non-random openings [...]
I never said the starting positions would be "known" -- they'd be an internal secret until they were played. :) I can't imagine an author caring too much about tuning to a "TCEC book" (is this more likely than aiming for wins in the 3:1:0 system via artificially increased contempt?), though I agree this should simply be made essentially impossible (unless there's a leak).

Adam Hair
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by Adam Hair » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:43 pm

Martin Thoresen wrote:Honestly, I am a bit surprised by all this. But also glad. Glad that people visit my site and enjoy chess, and glad that Chessdom actually dares to write an article like they have done.
If nothing else, it should spawn a great deal of discussion in our forums.

And also, I totally understand Albert Silver's viewpoint.
Congratulations Martin. It is always nice to receive recognition of one's work, even when it is unexpected.

By the way, I think that BB+'s comments on the opening positions are spot on. Perhaps somebody can help make
a small opening suite that is balanced and interesting.

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kingliveson
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by kingliveson » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:49 pm

BB+ wrote:
Fascinating, and an incredible blunder by ChessDom. It isn't to besmirch Houdini BTW, as that is not the problem. It is the fact they are promoting a small private computer chess tournament, with no official recognition, on their front page as the main article, after only three rounds, which is the sort of reporting reserved for major international chess tournaments.... It is amazingly bad judgment, and beyond stupid.
I happen to agree with some of this (especially after I figured out how the TCEC openings are chosen), though, alternatively, one could spin it the other way: "A bold new leap into chess reporting by ChessDom, putting computer chess on par with human events, enabling pawn-ogling fanatics to fend off virtual starvation until the mere ~2800 chess in Wijk aan Zee starts on Friday..." :mrgreen:
P.S. I do believe it is spelled IvanHoe -- someone please correct me if am wrong.
I too try to imitate internal capitalisation from the engine makers (though it is not always easy), but the book/movie is definitely with a small haitch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanhoe
I think Albert's issue with the report if you asked me was more to do with Houdini being given Press than TCEC tournament. Just my opinion. Also, Chessdom article was more about Houdini rather than the tournament, but used the matches to express that point about Houdini's strength.

As for IvanHoe, coming from those who gave us "Titanic Mode," there's always a subtle message, so that's why I thought the spelling should be correct. RobboLito is a better choice name though...very special and unique. :)
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen

BB+
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by BB+ » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:34 am

As for IvanHoe, coming from those who gave us "Titanic Mode," there's always a subtle message, so that's why I thought the spelling should be correct.
Perhaps "Armada Mode" would have been different? :lol: There was also the RobboLito TranspositionalTabularSizing (Zobrist) in MegaBytes. Note: Only dyadic powers suffice terminally! (I thought this was the original, but a check showed that IPPOLIT 0.080a had no UCI options). I think it was sidserious at Rybka Forum who pointed out that IvanHoe meant "Ivan's ho", though I really couldn't verify that this was a meaning (in general, or in the specific here).
There's got to be some quality book-makers around who would be willing to spend the time (3-5 hours?) to collate 56 (times 3, plus a few more for the Elite match) playable opening positions for a season's worth of games, [...]
Never let the maths boffin attempt combinatorics after midnight. :!: Obviously it's only 28 positions per Division, as each position is played twice. I can give some more specific criteria as to how I would choose such positions, though others are likely to be more competent with this. A lot of the minutiae would depend on your goals in any event (for instance, breadth of openings, recent popularity, drawishness..).

Martin Thoresen
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by Martin Thoresen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:35 am

Thanks BB+ and everyone else for sharing your opinion about the openings.

What will happen in the next Season for sure is:

#1: Book moves will be limited to 10 moves instead of 12
#2: The scoring system will go back to the standard instead of 3-1-0
#3: I have currently gathered about 10.000 openings from games with the following criteria: humans rated above 2690, high profile correspondence chess and high profile computer chess. The next 4 moves out of book (after move 10) are currently being analysed by Houdini 1.5 on my dual core laptop. After this process is done, I will use pgnscanner's SuspOpening function to eliminate unbalanced openings within certain criteria defined by the user, based on the eval Houdini adds to the pgn file after the analyzing process. I expect the final opening book to contain some 5.000 openings.

That's it for now.

Best,
Martin
TCEC - Thoresen Chess Engines Competition
http://tcec.chessdom.com

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kingliveson
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by kingliveson » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:11 pm

BB+ wrote:Perhaps "Armada Mode" would have been different? :lol: There was also the RobboLito TranspositionalTabularSizing (Zobrist) in MegaBytes. Note: Only dyadic powers suffice terminally! (I thought this was the original, but a check showed that IPPOLIT 0.080a had no UCI options). I think it was sidserious at Rybka Forum who pointed out that IvanHoe meant "Ivan's ho", though I really couldn't verify that this was a meaning (in general, or in the specific here).
Digging a little bit, found these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoe_%28dish%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoe_%28tool%29

IvanHoe being first released by Ivan Skavinsky Skavar, so is it Ivan's Hoe?! :)
PAWN : Knight >> Bishop >> Rook >>Queen

alfons
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Re: The cat's out of the bag

Post by alfons » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:47 pm

"I think it was sidserious at Rybka Forum who pointed out that IvanHoe meant "Ivan's ho"

if he posted this after 13.1.2010 I'll beat him to that:
http://schachcomputerwelt.foren-city.de ... .html#1452


cheers

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