Programmers Open Letter to ICGA on Rybka/Fruit

[Tord]

By the way, this thread proves that you need to block the possibility to use colored text on this message board.

It doesn't. If someone uses scissors to hurt someone else, does it mean we should put a ban on scissors? What about all their other uses?

Hopefully MichaelIsGreat can be restricted to no use of color tags, now that I think about it.

Yes, you're right. The best thing to do would be to keep the color tags, and simply not allow MichaelIsGreat to use them without adult supervision, in the same way that we don't leave young children unattended with a pair of sharp scissors.

[MichaelIsGreat]

Hello to All,


Let me repeat in case you did not notice the subject title of this post: [color=#0000FF][b][i]"Praises are what the best programmers should be showered with!!". I should add: instead of being showered with envious and jealous people's defamatory and false accusations that have for only purpose of gaining access to the source code of these best chess engine programs![/i][/b][/color]

This debate on clones is a pure waste of time for many reasons. One among these many reasons is the following one.
[color=#FF0000][b][u]ANY SKILLED PROGRAMMER IS ABLE TO COPY EVERY SINGLE IDEA FROM A PROGRAM (CHESS ENGINE PROGRAM OR ELSE) WITHOUT BREAKING THE SOFTWARE LICENSE FOR THE PROGRAM COPIED (STOLEN IF YOU PREFER)!! THAT IS THE CURRENT REALITY![/u][/b][/color] It only takes more work for this skilled programmer to write new code (reinvent the wheel!) than to use the code already written and available (avoid reinventing the wheel!).
[b][u]AND NOW, TO THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW IT ALL, WHICH ONE IS THE CLONE, THE CLONE MADE BY THE SKILLED PROGRAMMER WHO REWROTE THE CODE OR THE CLONE MADE BY THE OTHER PROGRAMMER WHO DID NOT BOTHER REWRITING THE CODE?!!! LOL, LOL!!![/u][/b] :) :) :shock:

[color=#FF0000][b][u]Having said that, how on earth would you be able to differentiate between this skilled programmer and the one who decided to avoid wasting time rewriting the code and simply used parts of the source code as it was? Both stole the code and did basically exactly the same, the skilled programmer putting more effort at hiding his deception!! THE TRUTH IS THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO SHOW THAT THE SKILLED PROGRAMMER HAS BORROWED EVERY SINGLE IDEA FROM THE SOURCE CODE OF THE PROGRAM THAT HE USED, AS DID THE OTHER PROGRAMMER WHO DID NOT REWRITE THE CODE!!![/u][/b][/color]

More, [color=#0000FF][b][i]among the chess engine programmers who want to witch-hunt Vasik Rajlich[/i][/b][/color], the excellent and talented programmer of Rybka (the first chess programmer to have truly advanded the state of the art in chess programming), [color=#0000FF][b]quite a few of them have nothing less than cloned, borrowed, stolen (whatever word you prefer!) [u]MANY IDEAS[/u] from several strong open source programs but they did so in such a way that it is basically impossible for anybody to figure it out by reading the source code of their chess engine programs! Now, what are you going to do against these programmers who deceptively basically stole many ideas from other chess engine programs but rewrote the code to make it “genuine” when it is basically a rewriting of someone else’s source code?[/b][/color]

And I am sure that these chess engine programmers hiding behind the ICGA’s witch-hunt against Rybka’s programmer Vasik Rajlich will want to be the first to check the source code of the chess engine programs that they have accused falsely and dishonestly to have borrowed GPL source code only to have access to the source code of these best chess engine programs! [color=#0000FF][b][i]So deceptive and so “human” all these bogus and nothing less than defamatory accusations against Rybka’s programmer Vasik Rajlich!! And so pathetic and so dishonest too at the same time!![/i][/b][/color]

And many more comments of this kind I could add. That is why I did not want to start a discussion on software licenses! It is like opening Pandora’s box!


[b][u]Conclusion:[/u][/b]
---[color=#0000FF][b][i]Instead of witch-hunting the best chess engine programmers who are extremely few, you should give them more resources (financial and hardware and else). What the ICGA has done on this matter? Basically, NOTHING!![/i][/b][/color]
[color=#0000FF][b][i]And please, leave the best chess engine programmers IN PEACE so that they could reach further heights to better even further the current best chess engine programs.[/i][/b][/color]
Go to the web site of these strong chess engines and send them cheques instead of witch-hunting them!
---[color=#0000FF][b][i]Many of you should check the meaning of the word defamation because that is what you have been doing not only for Rybka’s programmer Vasik Rajlich but for SEVERAL OTHER programs that happens to be very strong.[/i][/b][/color] You should be ashamed of yourself, to say the least! I am sick of your completely bogus rumors!
---[color=#0000FF][b][i]Concerning ICGA, the sooner they disappear, the better it will be for the chess engine programs and the best and most talented chess engine programmers.[/i][/b][/color] That is how bad the ICGA has become!! Sad to say but true!


Best Regards to All
MichaelIsGreat

[Uly]

I'm reposting a post that was originally a reply to this message:

http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?p=10778#p10778

MichaelTheGreat or should I say Billy Goat Bermuda. Ippolite source is already out there and it is much stronger than Rybka . The only sole purpose people are requiring this is because one of the Programmers, who wanted to participate in ICGA tournaments could not because ICGA board required he showed his source, because of the suspicion of it beeing a clone. The author was Fritz Reul of LoopList. Later he showed his source and was cleared of all charges.
If Vasik is innocent he has nothing to fear, and should do so by showing his source in any future Tournaments, as this is required by all participants to sho their source before they enter a tournament to prevent cheating and dishonesty.

[thorstenczub]

My thoughts exactly. I think it was a fair point while BB was unknown. But now the name is on the doccument I have no issues with its authenticity. BB is now on the ICGA Panel and I have no doubts about his credibility.

Who of those on the list is he, exactly?

Best,
Martin

He's not a signatory -- he's on the secretariat of the ICGA tribunal. BB+ is Mark Watkins.

Bildschirmfoto 2011-03-01 um 19.04.40.png

In fact he is on the Panel not the secretariat but that is splitting hairs

Maybe you can enlighten us, harvey, why you are on the panel.
IMO you cannot seriously be part of the tribunal.

harvey williamson banned people who used (as we see it today)
legal engine-clones from fruit (rybka) on the playchess server.
you attacked and banned me from the hiarcs forum because i
e.g. tested robbolito for mobiles and i put a link to this article
from the hiarcs forum to my website.
you claimed : i am supporting pirates.

now we learn:
robbolito is legal (because it publishes sources !!)
rybka is illegal.

so in fact the banning of people from the playchess server was not right.
the banning and censoring of people because they used robbolito etc.
and asked criticial questions, was not right.

how can it be that such a person (yes i am talking about you harvey), who has supported Vas Rajlich doing "his business" by censoring and banning other people,
in the interest of the commercial groups (rybka company, chessbase, hiarcs company),
is still in the panel ??


sorry. but that is not understandable to me. maybe you want to explain to me
what qualifies you to be a member of a panel.
the fact that you helped rajlich to hide the facts about the origin of rybka ?
does that qualify you to FIND OUT about the truth, when you
did the opposite of clearing up about the facts in the years before,
in your job as the sysop of chessbase, in your job as the leader of
the hiarcs forum team ?

IMO the open letter should not be directed towards levy and the ICGA.
it should be addressed towards you (harvey williamson).
similar with conkie and skinner. they all gave their best as the internet police in hunting
"pirates".

but those "pirates" did not SELL anything.
and those "pirates" did not do wrong against the GPL of fruit.

robbolito was published WITH sources.
rybka not.
robbolito was for free.
rybka not.

So WHO did damage to computerchess ?
those who supported "pirates" ?
or those who supported commercial programmers hiding the fact that
rybka broke GPL and was a fruit clone ?

All your efforts in the forums, all your efforts as sysop for chessbase,
went into the direction to betray the people.
the customers of rybka were betrayed. the people using the engine on
playchess had been betrayed. the elo list guys betrayed by banning "cloned" software.

did you ban people using rybka.- no.
did you ban people attacking robbolito guys ? no.
you banned/censored people attacking rybka.

therefore harvey you are burned harvey.
you cannot objectively help to FIND OUT THE TRUTH because
in all those years working for chessbase and hiarcs and swimming
in the computerchess scene you helped those people who
broke a GPL , who sold a product that was against all ethical
laws, the ethical laws of the computerchess community.


you are a person who defended those people who and helped those
people who exploited the break of the GPL in the case of Fabian Letouzey.
how do you want to judge in a panel about those things when you
yourself are deeply involved in the wrong and show wrong-doing behaviour
against those people want to find out about the truth.

that is really the best joke harvey.

Will you next time ban and censor all users who use rybka on the playchess server ?
will you ban and censor people in the hiarcs forum because they post something positive
about rajlich or rybka ? will you claim that those people you supported for such a long time,
are in fact supporting pirates breaking the GPL ?

you are a living contradiction harvey. a living paradoxon.
somebody we call in german: ein Fähnchen im Wind.

Bringing you into a panel like this means, as we say in german: Den Bock zum Gärtner machen.

[hyatt]

2) Moderation deleted a "TCEC is Best" post from MichaelIsGreat [see copies in other threads, if you care -- 2 exasperated replies to that were also moved(?)]. As I say, most of it was "off-topic" and about TCEC, but there is one issue that was raised that I might address.

In it, three times he specifically called me (BB+) "pathetic", and more than once insinuated that specifically I, and more generally other programmers, were doing this only to see the Rybka source [indeed, even the Subject was changed to reflect this].

As pointed out by others, this is a bit ridiculous.
a) In the 2006 LION++ case, the source code was reviewed independently by Bjornsson and Schaeffer, both men whose competence I could not doubt, and neither of whom are directly involved in computer chess. I suspect the ICGA would handle any Rybka source code in a similar manner.
b) If I really cared, I could likely decompile Rybka. So, for instance, could Zach. Back when Strelka appeared in 2008, Cozzie opined it would take him about 3 months to do so. Ed and Gerd are noted for the ASM skills, etc.
c) In my discussions with Fabien, I've never got the impression that he particularly cares to see whatever Rybka source code (new or old) that Rajlich might possess -- it seems just as likely to me [though I haven't asked] that he is more interesting in re-couping a fair share of whatever monies he feels Rajlich made through unfair competitive practises (whether or not the FSF has the same desideratum is a different question).

I don't feel so great about having his message removed and then commented upon without the author's original "points" in place as context/defense, and am tempted to repost it, despite the significant problems I had with it (I didn't remove it, though -- another mod did).

Nevertheless, I agree with you that none of the engine authors on that list require Rybka's source code, and that the argument is a straw man attempt to shut down a serious and well-prepared inquiry into what actually happened.

Good luck. I personally don't expect much to happen (I don't even expect a response from Mr Rajlich), but it's good to have all of the info out on the table.

Jeremy

Let me add that I received a copy from Mark, but I declined to sign it. Not because I didn't agree, but because David had already asked me to serve on the 3 member "secretariat" and it didn't seem reasonable to sign something I am going to eventually have to evaluate...

[MichaelIsGreat]

Hello to All,


I have been censored on this thread for using the word pathetic against someone and now you would like to censor my use of colors on MY POSTINGS?!!! Honestly, the person who did that has really serious problems and I am telling you, you should be ashamed of yourself to say the least!

FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I AM FULLY ENTITLED TO USE COLORS ON THESE FORUMS. IS IT CLEAR?
It is my right on this forum to use colors the way "I" see fit. Therefore, I ask the PATHETIC person who canceled my colors on my previous post to put them back. The guy who did that should be very ashamed of his inadmissible behavior, to say the least! He IS pathetic, a nice way to put it!

FOR A FEW OF YOU, YOU HAVE MADE NOTHING LESS THAN DEFAMATORY AND COMPLETELY FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST RYBKA’S PROGRAMMER VASIK RAJLICH. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? THAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO AGREE TO YOUR SHAMEFUL DEFAMATORY ACCUSATIONS AGAINST RYBKA’S PROGRAMMER VASIK RAJLICH? SORRY, I WILL NOT BE ONE OF THEM UNLESS YOU CENSOR FURTHER MY POSTINGS! FUNNY TO CENSOR POSTINGS FOR BOGUS REASONS ON A FORUM WHOSE WEB SITE IS OPEN-CHESS.ORG!!!

Apparently, quite a few among you do not accept other people's points of view either! You even go as far as asking to cancel my use of colors on my previous post! You should be very ashamed of your request to cancel my use of colors on my postings, you have no right to ask that and the censor who agreed to such a request has acted inadmissibly. How far more are you going to go? Ask to censor my postings because I have a different points of view than yours? You have done that once already!!

I probably am going to stop using these Open-Chess.org forums because I am censored for completely false and dishonest reasons only because quite a few loud people among you are incapable of accepting different points of view than yours! You want to hear people telling you that you are right even when you dare making defamatory and completely false accusations against Rybka's programmer Vasik Rajlich!! You should be very ashamed of you, especially the guy (I know who you are) who dare canceling my use of colors on this forum.


Best Regards to All (except to the shameful censors on "Open"-Chess.org!!)
MichaelIsGreat

[hyatt]

Hello to All,


David Levy, the main person behind the ICGA, has started a blind, completely illegitimate, and totally unfair defamatory attack against chess programmers with his recent attacks on chess engine programs that would supposedly be clones for a few of them. And why all this fuss? Only for a few very interested people to illegitimately gain access to the source code of the best chess engine programs and maybe steal their ideas in the process!

And what on earth has David Levy accomplished to advance further the state of the art of chess engine programs? Basically nearly nothing! Especially when compared to what the chess programmers like Vasik Rajlich, the programmer of Rybka, have done.
WE WOULD NEVER EVER HAVE BEEN AT THE HIGH LEVEL WHERE WE ARE TODAY IF CHESS PROGRAMMERS LIKE VASIK RAJLICH HAD NOT DECIDED TO IMPROVE DRAMATICALLY THE STATE OF THE ART IN CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMMING. NEVER! And yet, Vasik Rajlich should put up with ICGA's red tape bureaucrats whose only achievements has been to try to find faults at others when they repeatedly systematically refused to correct first ICGA's own many faults!

Instead of ICGA's new "witch hunt" of trying to find faults (where there are none! See my previous posts) among chess engine programmers who are honest enough to acknowledge their debts to open source chess engine programs --- these chess engine programmers who are the very people that allow the bogus, completely irrelevant ICGA "World Computer Chess Championships" to still be barely alive --- ICGA should start by seriously looking at itself and they should try to correct their own faults instead of accusing falsely others!! For instance, by assessing what is very wrong about the bogus and completely irrelevant ICGA "World Computer Chess Championships"!!!
I suppose it is easier to accuse others wrongly and falsely than to have the courage of correcting one's own mistakes and faults!!!

About your conspicuous silence about the following statement:
"WHEN SOMEONE GIVES THE SOURCE CODE OF HIS CHESS ENGINE PROGRAM, HE IS SURELY READY TO HAVE EVERY SINGLE LINE OF HIS SOURCE CODE USED IN OTHER CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMS. HE KNOWS THAT VERY WELL!!"
Consequently, a chess engine programmer could use the entire source code of a chess engine program whose source code is open source and has been made available online. And that would be perfectly fine for this chess engine programmer to do so!! Why? It is open source and free to use by anybody in their source code as soon as it has been made available online as an open source program!
MOREOVER, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, MANY PROGRAMS (AMONG THEM MANY COMMERCIAL PROGRAMS) USE BIG PARTS OF OPEN SOURCE CODE IN THEIR OWN PROGRAMS. NO ONE BOTHERS! BUT, IN THE CHESS ENGINE PROGRAMMING COMMUNITY THAT IS SO TINY, WE SHOULD BOTHER, ISN'T IT?!! And surely the blind and illogical people at ICGA could say, we surely should witch-hunt the most talented chess engine programmers as if they were so many to have reached the highest level, isn't it?!! Have I used the word pathetic in a previous post?!
These comments say it all about the current blind debate on clones among chess engine programs!! These comments should close the debate on clones once and for all!! END OF THE STORY I could say!!

Finally, I am perfectly happy to read other people's posts even when they disagree with me. However, is it really necessary to be dishonest at what you say when you disagree with me on what I have said? It would seem to be the case for a few sometimes! Moreover, what is the point of censoring someone's post by inventing false reasons to justify such censorship? Are you adults or blind children?!!
A few among you seem to have this problem of not being able to cope with other people's different points of view!! It is never too late to learn to accept others' different points of view!! I guess most of those posting live in a democratic society and therefore the Internet should certainly not be intolerant of other people's different points of view!


Regards to All
MichaelIsGreat

Any chance you might get a job, or go to school, or find a girl, or find a hobby, or something??? Your posts here are not adding anything of worth...

[hyatt]

MichaelIsGreat made one relevant point: there is no obvious correlation between playing strength and lines of computer code. If changing one line results in a 100 ELO advantage it is no less an insight than adding 1000 lines to get the same result. That's because random changes of any extent are overwhelmingly likely to prevent the program from compiling, or from playing legal moves, and overwhelmingly unlikely to improve playing strength. This is why we judge chess engines by having them play chess, rather than by examining their source code.

Fruit was the strongest chess engine at the time its source was closed, and I guarantee that every professional chess programmer with a pulse took everything they could from it. That is why all major chess engines exploded in strength around that time. Anyone who reads the Chess Programming Wiki should understand there are no secrets in this business, and this is why chess engines have always run neck-and-neck, below the statistical power of most tournaments (as MichaelIsGreat did correctly state). Except for Rybka, which lead the field -- including the Fruit derivative Toga and the commercial version of Fruit itself! -- by 100 ELO for a few years. So I don't think the idea of "cloning" an open source program makes much sense (reverse compiling is another issue). Rybka is a chess engine which happened to be new in 2005, whereas many top engines at the time happened to be new in 1985.

I would like to know why the commercial version of Fruit is not in violation of the GPL.

-Carl

Fabien holds the copyright to fruit since he wrote it. He, and he alone, can grant exception to anyone if he wants. Himself included...

[hyatt]

Hello to All,


I have been censored on this thread for using the word pathetic against someone and now you would like to censor my use of colors on MY POSTINGS?!!! Honestly, the person who did that has really serious problems and I am telling you, you should be ashamed of yourself to say the least!

FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I AM FULLY ENTITLED TO USE COLORS ON THESE FORUMS. IS IT CLEAR?
It is my right on this forum to use colors the way "I" see fit. Therefore, I ask the PATHETIC person who canceled my colors on my previous post to put them back. The guy who did that should be very ashamed of his inadmissible behavior, to say the least! He IS pathetic, a nice way to put it!

FOR A FEW OF YOU, YOU HAVE MADE NOTHING LESS THAN DEFAMATORY AND COMPLETELY FALSE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST RYBKA’S PROGRAMMER VASIK RAJLICH. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT? THAT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO AGREE TO YOUR SHAMEFUL DEFAMATORY ACCUSATIONS AGAINST RYBKA’S PROGRAMMER VASIK RAJLICH? SORRY, I WILL NOT BE ONE OF THEM UNLESS YOU CENSOR FURTHER MY POSTINGS! FUNNY TO CENSOR POSTINGS FOR BOGUS REASONS ON A FORUM WHOSE WEB SITE IS OPEN-CHESS.ORG!!!

Apparently, quite a few among you do not accept other people's points of view either! You even go as far as asking to cancel my use of colors on my previous post! You should be very ashamed of your request to cancel my use of colors on my postings, you have no right to ask that and the censor who agreed to such a request has acted inadmissibly. How far more are you going to go? Ask to censor my postings because I have a different points of view than yours? You have done that once already!!

I probably am going to stop using these Open-Chess.org forums because I am censored for completely false and dishonest reasons only because quite a few loud people among you are incapable of accepting different points of view than yours! You want to hear people telling you that you are right even when you dare making defamatory and completely false accusations against Rybka's programmer Vasik Rajlich!! You should be very ashamed of you, especially the guy (I know who you are) who dare canceling my use of colors on this forum.


Best Regards to All (except to the shameful censors on "Open"-Chess.org!!)
MichaelIsGreat

Rights???

You have the right to shut up unless you know something about the topic you are replying to. If you fail to use that right, moderators here have the right to shut you up themselves. At least you can no longer play with colors, although the down-side is that when someone copies your drivel to respond to it, the colors show up when quoted...

[kingliveson]

MichaelIsGreat,

It is normally considered rude to type in caps or do the colour thing you were doing on a forum or chat. You can make your point without yelling.

Franklin