Engine Originality vs. Engine Strength

[Uly]

I wasn't fighting anyone. I was (and still am) just striving and reaching (and along with that came some struggle).

You were fighting the system, and you won, congrats! My claim is that the fight shouldn't be necessary. It should be optional, for people like you that feel the need to struggle to reach where you are. Society shouldn't force people do do so if they want to be better, specially if other people at born at the top of the pyramid.

I assume you're going to not give any money to your son (if you have or will have one) so he needs to struggle for 15 years before being able to work in what he'd love doing, with the chance that he doesn't success, or will you help him to make his life easier?

I could not be the person I am now without those struggles or experiences.

Of course, you'd be different, but would you be worse? Instead of having the experience that you have you'd have different experiences. Things don't get worse just because they're easier.

If you claim that you're the best person that you could be thanks to the system, then why don't all rich people throw away their money and start from the ground up, to have such struggles and experience and become better persons? Because they don't think it's necessary, they already have the money and time to do what they want, they don't even have to work, they can dedicate their time to their hobbies.

And the other problem with your argument is that even if you take money out of the equation, the human condition will just replace it with love of power etc. etc.

I don't think greed is in the human nature, since kids we're trained to be like that, to be competitive instead of cooperative. People aren't born evil, they are taught to be so.

[Charles]

The US is currently being destroyed by socialists not real die hard commies but idiots who think socialism is not such a bad idea and make the same arguments as in this forum in response to me.
Obama is the sad result of this ...even worse -- Bush himself was not a great defender of capitalism and more interested in world empire which is also part of the downfall of US
.. The last great president of US was Reagan ..

But that aside -- this chess engine debate is exposing how stupid supporters of marxism are. You realize that once commercial chess engines are driven out of business there will be NO innovation ... Except for hobbyists -- and they will give you buggy software ... btw Rybka is not the only commercial chess engine - if you want to point to current bugs in r4.

I use SCID which is open source software but you know what -- they just released a new version and it introduced a few more bugs .. I would NEVER pay for a product like that... Chessbase for all its problems does make a good product -- I don't need it so I dont buy it ... But if you want to be up to speed with latest opening lines you have to get chessbase.


As for gap betw rich and poor - when America was at its high point - (this was even before the civil rights movemnt) the poorest Americans were RICHer than the middle class of most countries ...

Do no confuse American intervention /exploitation in foreign countries with capitalism --

Rather than just argue this needlessly i suggest you read as much as possible about Milton Friedman

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
Milton Friedman


If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand.
Milton Friedman

Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government.
Milton Friedman

[tomgdrums]

I wasn't fighting anyone. I was (and still am) just striving and reaching (and along with that came some struggle).

You were fighting the system, and you won, congrats! My claim is that the fight shouldn't be necessary. It should be optional, for people like you that feel the need to struggle to reach where you are. Society shouldn't force people do do so if they want to be better, specially if other people at born at the top of the pyramid.

I assume you're going to not give any money to your son (if you have or will have one) so he needs to struggle for 15 years before being able to work in what he'd love doing, with the chance that he doesn't success, or will you help him to make his life easier?

I could not be the person I am now without those struggles or experiences.

Of course, you'd be different, but would you be worse? Instead of having the experience that you have you'd have different experiences. Things don't get worse just because they're easier.

If you claim that you're the best person that you could be thanks to the system, then why don't all rich people throw away their money and start from the ground up, to have such struggles and experience and become better persons? Because they don't think it's necessary, they already have the money and time to do what they want, they don't even have to work, they can dedicate their time to their hobbies.

And the other problem with your argument is that even if you take money out of the equation, the human condition will just replace it with love of power etc. etc.

I don't think greed is in the human nature, since kids we're trained to be like that, to be competitive instead of cooperative. People aren't born evil, they are taught to be so.

Okay it will be hard to debate you since you don't understand human nature. Babies have to be TAUGHT how to share. They don't give up their sippy cup very easily. Babies also want what they want and will grab for it regardless of whose it is. Young children have to learn to play nice. etc. etc.

You have a typical "us vs. them---rich vs poor attitude".

And you don't get good at anything without struggle and time. I am a musician and except in the rare case of the occasional mozart (and he practiced a bunch) achievement in music (and most skills, and talents) does not occur without hard work and struggle. That is just the way it is.

[Uly]

That is just the way it is.

Yes, you talk about that, I talk about the way it could be.

[thorstenczub]

Okay it will be hard to debate you since you don't understand human nature. Babies have to be TAUGHT how to share. They don't give up their sippy cup very easily. Babies also want what they want and will grab for it regardless of whose it is. Young children have to learn to play nice. etc. etc.

You have a typical "us vs. them---rich vs poor attitude".

And you don't get good at anything without struggle and time. I am a musician and except in the rare case of the occasional mozart (and he practiced a bunch) achievement in music (and most skills, and talents) does not occur without hard work and struggle. That is just the way it is.

I saw in tv that the difference between apes and humans is, that humans can share, cooperate.
scientists tested this out.in experiments.

[Swaminathan]

How did we go from "Engine Originality vs. Engine Strength" to a debate between a Socialist who wants to share the wealth and Corporate Capitalist who thinks huge gap between the rich and poor is a good thing?

Because I claimed that the current money system leads to competition, which leads to slower advancement of computer chess, that could be avoided if people cooperated, which could only be possible in a different society.

In a cooperative society, all programs would be open source, and the relevant parts could be used freely from one program to another. Engine Strength would be much higher, and originality would not have relevance. Why would you want to keep some new powerful idea secret?

But then again there will always be an issue of ownership/effort.

There will be heavy dispute as to who had put more effort into developing the source and made it stronger. How much time they had spent, and how much elo their idea had contributed as the result.

But I do agree that in case of Stockfish, the team is doing well so far. But this is the team with 3 programmers.

An idea of open source engine with 50 programmers without any kind of dispute is difficult to imagine. Some of them would experiment with the new idea and then decide to keep the engine private instead.

[Uly]

But then again there will always be an issue of ownership/effort.

I don't really get why some people are so obsessed for being credited, some people even use "credit" as their motivation! In true cooperation, the goal is getting better results, not competing to see who is at the top of the credit list.

In my personal work, I never request to be credited, though people want to give me the credit, I don't find it important at all, what I find important is how my work helps the community.

[thorstenczub]

The US is currently being destroyed by socialists not real die hard commies but idiots who think socialism is not such a bad idea and make the same arguments as in this forum in response to me.

The US was destroyed by people like bush or reagan, who liberalized the markets on costs of the public who has NOW to pay the price for the desaster. socialism has nothing to do with the stock market "experience" the majority of americans is living in the moment.
neoliberalism is the cause. uncontrolled free markets destroy peoples life.

Obama is the sad result of this ...even worse --

obama is no "sad" result.
he is the best US could happen.

Bush himself was not a great defender of capitalism and more interested in world empire which is also part of the downfall of US
.. The last great president of US was Reagan ..

?? reagan ?
reagan was an actor. a stupid one. how can you believe such a cowboy actor was a good president.
watched too many john wayne movies ??

But that aside -- this chess engine debate is exposing how stupid supporters of marxism are.

what has marxism to do with that ?

You realize that once commercial chess engines are driven out of business there will be NO innovation ... Except for hobbyists -- and they will give you buggy software ... btw Rybka is not the only commercial chess engine - if you want to point to current bugs in r4.

and you believe that Fritz and other innovative commercial products have bugs because they were driven out ??

those bugs were in the products as long as these products exist.

I use SCID which is open source software but you know what -- they just released a new version and it introduced a few more bugs .. I would NEVER pay for a product like that... Chessbase for all its problems does make a good product -- I don't need it so I dont buy it ... But if you want to be up to speed with latest opening lines you have to get chessbase.

chessbase products are buggy IMO. and the fixed bugs come back with each new chess program.

[Charles]

The US is currently being destroyed by socialists not real die hard commies but idiots who think socialism is not such a bad idea and make the same arguments as in this forum in response to me.

The US was destroyed by people like bush or reagan, who liberalized the markets on costs of the public who has NOW to pay the price for the desaster. socialism has nothing to do with the stock market "experience" the majority of americans is living in the moment.
neoliberalism is the cause. uncontrolled free markets destroy peoples life.

Free market is the solution -- please read Milton Friedman - , and understand basic economics before you reply me.

Obama is the sad result of this ...even worse --



obama is no "sad" result.
he is the best US could happen.

Obama is an unqualified hack set up by money interests and voted for by a gullible public.

Bush himself was not a great defender of capitalism and more interested in world empire which is also part of the downfall of US
.. The last great president of US was Reagan ..


?? reagan ?
reagan was an actor. a stupid one. how can you believe such a cowboy actor was a good president.
watched too many john wayne movies ??

Stupid people normally call intelligent ones stupid - so I understand your point of view.

But that aside -- this chess engine debate is exposing how stupid supporters of marxism are.



what has marxism to do with that ?

Please understand that no credit for work and originality leads to lack of innovation

You realize that once commercial chess engines are driven out of business there will be NO innovation ... Except for hobbyists -- and they will give you buggy software ... btw Rybka is not the only commercial chess engine - if you want to point to current bugs in r4.


and you believe that Fritz and other innovative commercial products have bugs because they were driven out ??

those bugs were in the products as long as these products exist.

People will not buy buggy products for ever.. Its called competition they will go to the superior product.

I use SCID which is open source software but you know what -- they just released a new version and it introduced a few more bugs .. I would NEVER pay for a product like that... Chessbase for all its problems does make a good product -- I don't need it so I dont buy it ... But if you want to be up to speed with latest opening lines you have to get chessbase.


chessbase products are buggy IMO. and the fixed bugs come back with each new chess program.

They are less buggy and more usable than open source software.

[thorstenczub]

Free market is the solution -- please read Milton Friedman - , and understand basic economics before you reply me.

Free markets were the reason for the WORLD WIDE ECONOMIC DISASTER we had a few months before.
Is your brain so much full of holes that you forgot what has happened a few months before ALL OVER THE WORLD ? whole countries went bancrupt because of the FREE MARKET your heroes
Reagan and Bush supported like hell.

without the help of neoliberal politicians all over the world, this deaster of organized criminal behaviour done by the stock market guys could not have happened.

if you have FREE markets without laws, it will helo criminals to misuse the markets.
if your homes do not have a lock, thiefs will go into them and rob out your home.

Obama is an unqualified hack set up by money interests and voted for by a gullible public.

strange . i always thought this about reagan and bush

Stupid people normally call intelligent ones stupid - so I understand your point of view.

so what is intelligent about reagan ? that he learned a role by heart ?
so what is intelligent about bush, that he fall into sleep because he bit into a brezel ?

People will not buy buggy products for ever.. Its called competition they will go to the superior product.

people bought buggy programs as long as chessbase existed.
chessbase never died because of the bugs. and the people did not buy it because of these bugs.

They are less buggy and more usable than open source software.

?
IMO Arena is superior to chessbase products.