Progess (often) is ugly, a summary try

[kingliveson]

You really need to work on your reading comprehension, oudheusa:

Perhaps you should take some of your own medicine Jeremy.
I have never taken position on the verdict. I have called the ICGA a bunch of amateurs, which some took as offense, for their lack of due legal process and their disproportionate 'sentence', while for Rybka 3 and 4 nothing was proven.

I can't agree regarding Rybka 3, but as far as 4 is concerned, Vasik would have to be one obnoxious, incompetent liar of a software engineer to have left traces. The code copying accusation was on going for years, gained traction after Rybka 3's release, and became even more public months and months prior to release of version 4 given the Ippolit situation.

[oudheusa]

The amateurish component here is from posts such as yours that complain about vague issues (lack of due legal process).

You sure hate being called an amateur Bob, don't you?

[hyatt]

No, I hate to see a complex process, where lots of internal debate went on before we even agreed on how to proceed to create a panel for the investigation, where the panel itself deliberated for months, had discussions pro and con on most every piece of evidence, requested additional evidence in some places, required additional explanation in some places, rewrote some parts to eliminate ambiguities, and so forth, get accused of being "amateurish". There were some _very_ good people on the panel, people that did a _ton_ of work, for no pay at all. Mark Watkins is at the top of the list, for me. Some outstanding observations and analysis supported by very clear C to asm comparisons. Anyone that thinks that any of that, or the rest of the report, was "amateurish" is most likely not competent to make such an assessment. Those that think this could be overturned in court are not living in reality. It doesn't get much better than the data presented in the report...

[Rebel]

I disagree with the above point, though. The "World Computer Chess Champion" title is used publicly, is attached to advertising and other marketing materials and isn't a programmer-specific designation. In the same way that cheating at the Chess Olympiad isn't a private olympiad-chess-player matter. The ICGA is certainly within its rights and scope of activity to announce that the World Computer Chess Champion broke the rules and has had his championship status revoked. The fact that they published the evidence is extraordinary, in fact -- most organizations would have kept that private and just said "it is what it is". I appreciate that any programming-literate individual can read the documents and understand the conclusions drawn.

Anyhow, plenty of room for disagreement. Nice to see you posting again.

EDIT: another way of thinking about this is -- by participating in the WCCC, Vas "won" the marketing title of "World Computer Chess Champion", a title administered by the ICGA. By determining that the entry was fraudulent, the ICGA must necessarily revoke that title, and the only means of doing so is via a public announcement.

jb

Hi Jeremy,

If you read those mainstream sources it's missing ingredient is balance. There is no mentioning that without Rybka, because its ideas were hacked in return, nowadays modern engines play 300-400 elo stronger. This is Vas's legacy. Without a hacked Rybka no Houdini. Without a hacked Rybka the old boys, the Fritzes, the Shredders etc. probably would still rule perhaps having some (fierce) competition of Stockfish. All playing hundreds of elo points less. It should be mentioned and it isn't.

[hyatt]

There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught. Yes, Robin Hood makes a good story, and a good TV series, etc. But he was _still_ a criminal. That is a highly convoluted way of looking for good in a pot that only has bad ingredients in it...

Do you _really_ think that without Rybka, whatever it was that Vas discovered would have remained forever secret? That is a stretch of a stretch of a stretch. I am not sure anyone has figured out everything he did, anyway. There is always room for progress. There will always be progress. Until the game is solved, anyway.

It sounds like you want the story to read:

"Yes, he murdered someone in cold blood. They were unarmed. Sitting in his house watching TV and minding his own business. But the person he murdered had raped his daughter, and by killing this maniac, the world is a safer place. So don't remember him as a murderer that chose to become judge, jury and executioner, remember him as the person that removed an evil person from our midst."

That is a stretch. Not that I would not agree with that given the right circumstances. But not in _this_ circumstance.

It went on for far too long a time to just be an innocent mistake.

[veritas]

I disagree with the above point, though. The "World Computer Chess Champion" title is used publicly, is attached to advertising and other marketing materials and isn't a programmer-specific designation. In the same way that cheating at the Chess Olympiad isn't a private olympiad-chess-player matter. The ICGA is certainly within its rights and scope of activity to announce that the World Computer Chess Champion broke the rules and has had his championship status revoked. The fact that they published the evidence is extraordinary, in fact -- most organizations would have kept that private and just said "it is what it is". I appreciate that any programming-literate individual can read the documents and understand the conclusions drawn.

Anyhow, plenty of room for disagreement. Nice to see you posting again.

EDIT: another way of thinking about this is -- by participating in the WCCC, Vas "won" the marketing title of "World Computer Chess Champion", a title administered by the ICGA. By determining that the entry was fraudulent, the ICGA must necessarily revoke that title, and the only means of doing so is via a public announcement.

jb

Hi Jeremy,

If you read those mainstream sources it's missing ingredient is balance. There is no mentioning that without Rybka, because its ideas were hacked in return, nowadays modern engines play 300-400 elo stronger. This is Vas's legacy. Without a hacked Rybka no Houdini. Without a hacked Rybka the old boys, the Fritzes, the Shredders etc. probably would still rule perhaps having some (fierce) competition of Stockfish. All playing hundreds of elo points less. It should be mentioned and it isn't.

some awful analogies being drawn in this topic..

Mussolini was ok because he got the trains to run on time ? Hitler was ok because provided great architecture and gave the nation better housing and its pride before its shame ?
you cannot read from today what MAY have or MAY NOT have happened had something been different , who knows who may have progressed there own engines had rybka not broken hearts with its piracy

as for the rapists murder ?
id vote not guilty and if in the murders position do the same position ,only very slowly and very painfully


Vas has been totally arrogant , he has in effect ripped off 100s of 1000s of people and lied and procrastinated when many found the engine unfit for the whole purpose they were supposed to be , you dont sell a car that hasnt got a reverse gear , bishop bugs etc etc and hes not alone , others like Felx G B and Hiracs 2 faced mouthpiece and fanboys from playchess and co shoulder much of the shame and guilt whether they like it or not , at least Peter Skinner has found the courage to publicly apologize for allowing engines he thought clones to participate in his rankings tournaments

reality bites and Ippolit shook the tree Vas thought would keep him safe from falling , now hes fallen and hard ,what major GMs will touch his tainted cluster now ?
that's veritas

[Rebel]

that's veritas

Ok, let's talk VERITAS (truth),

It would also require all programmers who have profit from the hacked Rybka's to remove Vas's unique ideas good for 300-400 elo from their programs.

Do you see it happen ?

Drag Vas for the tribunal, convict him, humiliate him, but hey....... keep using his brilliant ideas.

Can we please have some balance ?

[Rebel]

There is no "legacy" when you steal something, use the money for good, then get caught.

So now you are going to remove all the stolen Rybka idea's in Crafty ?

[Jeremy Bernstein]

I disagree with the above point, though. The "World Computer Chess Champion" title is used publicly, is attached to advertising and other marketing materials and isn't a programmer-specific designation. In the same way that cheating at the Chess Olympiad isn't a private olympiad-chess-player matter. The ICGA is certainly within its rights and scope of activity to announce that the World Computer Chess Champion broke the rules and has had his championship status revoked. The fact that they published the evidence is extraordinary, in fact -- most organizations would have kept that private and just said "it is what it is". I appreciate that any programming-literate individual can read the documents and understand the conclusions drawn.

Anyhow, plenty of room for disagreement. Nice to see you posting again.

EDIT: another way of thinking about this is -- by participating in the WCCC, Vas "won" the marketing title of "World Computer Chess Champion", a title administered by the ICGA. By determining that the entry was fraudulent, the ICGA must necessarily revoke that title, and the only means of doing so is via a public announcement.

jb

Hi Jeremy,

If you read those mainstream sources it's missing ingredient is balance. There is no mentioning that without Rybka, because its ideas were hacked in return, nowadays modern engines play 300-400 elo stronger. This is Vas's legacy. Without a hacked Rybka no Houdini. Without a hacked Rybka the old boys, the Fritzes, the Shredders etc. probably would still rule perhaps having some (fierce) competition of Stockfish. All playing hundreds of elo points less. It should be mentioned and it isn't.

I'll grant you that there is a missing acknowledgement that Vasik is a gifted programmer who took the stolen sources he began with much further than anyone else managed. But it's kind of hard to keep a straight face while doing so, given that he started with stolen sources. Sure, he had some good and influential ideas, but I can understand how a journalist might not get the subtle point you want to make.

Jeremy

[JcMaTe]

Rebeld do you remember Milli Vanilli? if yes can you tell me what do you think about it?


I am not programmer but i can say this VAS took advantage from crafty and fruit to make money and have a better life till today with out them( crafty and fruit )there would not rybka and the way you feel make me think for you its ok that somebody steal one million dollars then go and give them poor people to have a better life and everybody we have to cheer for that?