Open Letters To ChessBase SYSOPs

[Jeremy Bernstein]

What about the legal aspect?
Does banning customers who use the so called "clones" violate European consumer protection laws?
Does banning customers who use the so called "clones" violate European competition laws?
If someone says that an engine is a "clone", can it be considered slander?

their policy on what engines are allowed.

By the way, is this policy included in the license agreement? With the list of "forbidden" engines?
Have you considered the possibility that, for instance, there's much less (ideas, not code) from Ippolit in Houdini 1.5 than in Houdini 1.03?

If you join a club you have to obey its rules, Playchess is no different. They could close the engine room and just leave the server for Human games if they wanted. They could decide only CB native engines allowed.

Which raises the interesting question: what are the rules, where are they published and when do users agree to follow them? I just did a bit of searching, on and off PlayChess, and I can't find the server rules anywhere.

Jeremy

UPDATE, found them (GIYF): http://www.schach-server.de/gameserverm ... /rules.asp

[ThinkingALot]

If you join a club you have to obey its rules, Playchess is no different. They could close the engine room and just leave the server for Human games if they wanted. They could decide only CB native engines allowed.

Sure, but the customers did pay for membership. For a membership with specific rules. Are you sure that CB can change these rules on the fly? I'm not. Consider an exaggerated situation. Say, someone has an internet server and sells memberships. And decides once to change the rules: say, allow only bullet games with 1+0 time control. So the server becomes practically useless for those who enjoy long games. IMHO, at least from the ethical point of view, these customers have the right to get their money back. That's why rules must not be changed in such way.

P.S. Now there's such a fuss around Houdini in each forum. Probably allowing "clones" to play on playchess wouldn't hurt CB's buisness at all. 100 people in the engine room are just a tiny amount compared with the whole chess community.

UPDATE, found them (GIYF): http://www.schach-server.de/gameserverm ... rules.asp0

Die Seite wurde nicht gefunden. Remove 0 after .asp:).

[ThinkingALot]

UPDATE, found them (GIYF): http://www.schach-server.de/gameserverm ... rules.asp0

Die Seite wurde nicht gefunden. Remove 0 after .asp:).[/quote]
http://www.schach-server.de/gameserverm ... /rules.asp
P.P.S. Not a single word about clones.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

UPDATE, found them (GIYF): [url]ttp://www.schach-server.de/gameservermsg/english/rules.asp[/url]

P.P.S. Not a single word about clones.

Thanks, I fixed the link. Here are some slightly newer ones in german: http://www.schach-server.de/gameserverm ... egeln2.asp. Strangely, this page isn't linked from anywhere -- the links on the "Regeln" page go to the tournament rules, not these rules.

In any case, the paragraph you want is unchanged from the one in english from 2003:

§ 7 Pirating software

1.
It is explicitly forbidden to play on the server with illegal software copies. Moreover, it is also explicitly forbidden to use the server as platform for distributing illegal software or data collections. It is forbidden to use the server as platform to initiate contacts which aim to exchange, to trade or to pass on illegal software, no matter whether for money or for free. Excluded from this are freeware or shareware programs as well as the Nalimov tablebases and other software not subject to any copyright.

2.
Breaching these rules may lead to an immediate closure of access to the server. Moreover, the operator of the server, the ChessBase GmbH, in these cases has the right to use stored data for pursuing copyright claims, either under criminal or civil law.

or if you prefer the german

§ 7 Software-Piraterie

1. Es ist ausdrücklich verboten auf dem Server mit illegalen Kopien von Software zu spielen. Es ist weiter ausdrücklich verboten, den Server als Plattform für die Verbreitung von illegaler Software oder Datensammlungen zu nutzen. Es ist verboten, den Server als Plattform zur Anbahnung von Kontakten zu nutzen, welche den Austausch, den Handel oder die Weitergabe, sei es entgeltlich oder unentgeltlich, von illegaler Software zum Ziel haben. Ausgenommen sind Freeware oder Shareware-Programme, im Rahmen derer Nutzungsregelungen, sowie die Nalimov-Tablebases und andere Software, die keinem Copyright unterliegt.

2. Ein Verstoß gegen diese Vorschriften kann eine sofortige Sperrung des Zugangs zum Server zur Folge haben. Des weiteren ist der Betreiber des Servers, die ChessBase GmbH, berechtigt, in diesen Fällen gespeicherte Daten zur Verfolgung urheberrechtlicher Ansprüche, seien sie zivil- oder strafrechtlicher Natur, zu verwenden.

Regardless of the language, a) there is no mention of clones and b) there is an explicit exception made for the case of free- and shareware. Maybe there are newer rules kept in a secret, secure location, but this is the best I could find.

Jeremy

[Harvey Williamson]

If you go to the engine room and click on the info tab you will get more detailed rules - cant give you a direct link at the moment as cant log on through my works firewall.

[ThinkingALot]

In any case, the paragraph you want is unchanged from the one in english from 2003, though:

It is explicitly forbidden to play on the server with illegal software copies. Moreover, it is also explicitly forbidden to use the server as platform for distributing illegal software or data collections. It is forbidden to use the server as platform to initiate contacts which aim to exchange, to trade or to pass on illegal software, no matter whether for money or for free. Excluded from this are freeware or shareware programs as well as the Nalimov tablebases and other software not subject to any copyright.

Regardless of the language, a) there is no mention of clones and b) there is an explicit exception made for the case of free- and shareware. Maybe there are newer rules kept in a secret, secure location, but this is the best I could find.

It's forbidden only to "to exchange, to trade or to pass on" illegal software. So to justify banning clone users one need to
1) Prove that "clones" are illegal. I seriuously doubt that it's possible cause even the first Ippolit isn't likely to contain even a single code line from Rybka.
2) Prove that people play with Houdini renamed to Stockfish/Critter or smth else with the purpose of exchanging, trading or passing on Houdini. This is ridiculous.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

If you go to the engine room and click on the info tab you will get more detailed rules - cant give you a direct link at the moment as cant log on through my works firewall.

These?

Verbindliche Regeln:

1. Der Chat auf einem Schachserver hat den gleichen rechtlichen Status wie sonstige mündliche oder schriftliche Kommunikation zwischen Personen. Beleidigungen haben rechtliche Konsequenzen, insbesondere können schwere Beleidigungen und Volksverhetzung zu Strafverfolgung führen. Jeder Spieler ist dazu über seine vom Server vertraulich gespeicherte IP-Adresse eindeutig identifizierbar.
Abgesehen von rechtlichen Fragen werden Beleidigungen jeder Art ohne weitere Vorwarnung mit Vollsperrungen geahndet, deren Befristung sich nach der Schwere der Vergehen richtet.

2. Es ist hier, wie sonst auch, grundsätzlich verboten, kommerzielle Programme oder Engines zu handeln, zu tauschen oder getauschte oder schwarzkopierte Software oder Engines zu benutzen. Zuwiderhandlungen werden mindestens mit komplettem unbefristetem Ausschluss aller Zugangskonten bestraft.
Ausgenommen sind selbstverständlich Freeware oder Shareware-Programme sowie die Nalimov-Tablebases, die keinem Copyright unterliegen.

3. Das Hochspielen einer ELO-Zahl (padding oder boosting) durch vorsätzliches Verlieren ist verboten, es spielt dabei keine Rolle, ob dieses gegen eigene Zugangskonten, Freunde oder Verwandte geschieht. Sobald für einen Mitarbeiter von ChessBase ein solches Handeln ersichtlich wird, werden alle Zugänge der beteiligten Spieler unverzüglich gesperrt. Bitte spielen Sie im Zweifelsfalle freie Partien ohne Elowertung.

4. Manipulationen des eigenen Systems (z.B. Lag) sind unfair und führen zur Sperrung.

5. Zugangskonten, die nicht mit einer Seriennummer freigeschaltet sind, können gelöscht werden, sofern es sich nicht erkennbar um einen kürzlich angelegten Testzugang eines neuen Spielers handelt, der Software und Server kennen lernen möchte. Bitte geben Sie im Zweifelsfall zügig eine Seriennummer ein.

The only relevant paragraph is #2. Again, it forbids commerce in or trading of illegal engines. Break the rule, you will be rewarded with at least an instant ban on all of your logins. And once again, an exception is made for free- and shareware. No mention of clones, nor of the sysops' prerogative in defining them.

[Jeremy Bernstein]

If you go to the engine room and click on the info tab you will get more detailed rules - cant give you a direct link at the moment as cant log on through my works firewall.

Here in english:

Compulsory rules:

1. Chatting on a chess server has the same legal status as any verbal or written communication between individuals. Insults have legal consequences, in particular, severe insults and incitement may result in criminal prosecution. Every player can be unambiguously identified through his IP address which is stored by the server. Apart from legal consequences, insults of any kind will be punished by complete bans without further notice, the duration of which is subject to the severe ness of the offence.

2. Here, like everywhere else, it is forbidden to trade commercial programs or engines or to use traded or bootlegged software or engines. Contraventions will be punished, at least by a complete permanent banning of all access accounts and other legal action may be taken against the offender as deemed appropriate. Excluded are, of course, freeware or shareware programs as well as the Nalimov Tablebases which are not subject to any copyright.

3. Boosting an Elo rating by losing intentionally (padding) is forbidden, regardless whether the loss occurs against your own access accounts, friends or relatives. As soon as such boosting is noticed by a ChessBase employee, all accounts of the involved players will be immediately banned. If in doubt, please play friendly games which are not Elo rated.

4. Manipulating your own system (e.g. lag) is unfair and leads to banning. Please schedule lengthy uploads or downloads to a time other than when you are playing.

Apparently, german-speakers have an additional rule to follow.

Jeremy

[Kevin Frayer]

In order to better illustrate the problems over at the PlayChess Engine Room and the degenerating conditions. I am posting some chat logs. Honestly; this is more chat in this room than one normally sees in a week. It is somewhat tedious to go through and for that I apologize, however it was necessary to include this much, so as to assure Harvey Williamson's words were not taken out of context.

I have highlighted Harvey's words so the reader may zero in on the current CB position concerning so called clones and renamed engines. One point of interest is when ask directly why players can not use Houdini in the engine room; Harvey seems to convey the impression the it is no more than a renamed engine and players that would use it are somehow lacking in morals.

Before the CB spin masters tear into me, let me say this chat log has had only the auto server posts removed. No user or SYSOP chat has been altered or reorder in anyway and is complete. I certify this.

Engine Room 1-14-2011
Elitejustice (To all): Hello folks...Has anyone heard anything new about updates for Rybka4? Or are we screwed as to ever getting an update?
Elitejustice (To all): Are we destined to wait for R5?
Eroica (To all): next comes Rybkini
Eroica (To all): Rybdini
Maurizio13 (To all): rybka never releases updates
Maurizio13 (To all): rybka works for cluster and a minor version of cluster software is on sale for customers
Maurizio13 (To all): this is r4
Elitejustice (To all): that is pretty lame
Elitejustice (To all): everyone else can put out an update
Elitejustice (To all): I guess there is no such thing....kinda like the Easter Bunny
Maurizio13 (To all): of course theres not
Maurizio13 (To all): chess engine developpment is in crisis
Maurizio13 (To all): ideas are almost over
Elitejustice (To all): so we've gone about as far as we can go eh?
Elitejustice (To all): I bet people thought that a few years ago too
Elitejustice (To all): and look where we are now
Maurizio13 (To all): we r not so far as u see
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Maurizio13 (To all): r4-r3 are about 30-40 points
Maurizio13 (To all): not so much in over 2 years
Elitejustice (To all): I've only been around since R3...so I don't know how far we have come since earlier versions
Maurizio13 (To all): just take in consideration elo, 30-40 points in 28 month are a statement
Formula Reject: Rated 5m + 0s from Donmez
Elitejustice (To all): I figure r4 could have been made considerably stronger had it not been for clones....Vas intentionaly
weakened r4 to say better version for rental rybka
Elitejustice (To all): to save better version
Maurizio13 (To all): its true but elo difference is not so wide
Maurizio13 (To all): u cannot invent anything new
Elitejustice (To all): hmmnnn....ohh well....I guess it's how a hardware race then
Elitejustice (To all): he with the biggest fastest cpu wins!
Elitejustice (To all): and a good book
Maurizio13 (To all): if u mean scaling i think yes, i think engines are running better scalings
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Maurizio13 (To all): ya
Maurizio13 (To all): books are son sale
Maurizio13 (To all): thats a business
Maurizio13 (To all): on*
Elitejustice (To all): but the for sale books are only going to hold up for so long without updates to them
Elitejustice (To all): Rybka doesn't offer that....Hiarcs does
Maurizio13 (To all): rybka offered that and i payed for that
Elitejustice (To all): they used to offer book updates?
Maurizio13 (To all): hiarcs offers a service like shredder
Maurizio13 (To all): no rybka doesnt
Maurizio13 (To all): only on payment
Elitejustice (To all): i didn't think so....
Maurizio13 (To all): i have payed that
Maurizio13 (To all): around 25 euros
Elitejustice (To all): I paid for the official R4 book...it was great when it first came out....will not hold up now against newer books
Maurizio13 (To all): yes it was not offical book, it was a claimed better book for r4
Maurizio13 (To all): yes in few days it was down of 200 elo
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): book by jiri was not official r4 book?
Maurizio13 (To all): yes it was official but not inside official r4
Elitejustice (To all): o ok
Elitejustice (To all): do you make your own books?
Maurizio13 (To all): did u ever think about when a commercial engine will overtake rybka? yes i did something some months ago
Maurizio13 (To all): it was good
Maurizio13 (To all): i made immediately more than 2700 in blitz and bullet
Elitejustice (To all): are you talking about the free engines or the paid engines?
Elitejustice (To all): nice book u made
Maurizio13 (To all): ya
Maurizio13 (To all): it was made by myself, speculing on rybka play
Maurizio13 (To all): i talk about commercial engines, i know that free engines will overtake rybka probably before september
Elitejustice (To all): some already have...but we can't mention those here
Maurizio13 (To all): i kno
Elitejustice (To all): if those are supposedly clones...and they are that much stronger...why could Vas not do the same things?
Elitejustice (To all): thing
Maurizio13 (To all): dont make talk please
Maurizio13 (To all): ...
Elitejustice (To all): ok...
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Maurizio13 (To all): u understand...
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
TOrt2 (To all): chessbase will probably sell the unmentionable engine soon
TOrt2 (To all): why else ban it and not sue them in court for copyright infringement ?
TOrt2 (To all): seems like a negotiating ploy
Maurizio13 (To all): i think u are right Tort2
TOrt2 (To all): think about it
TOrt2 (To all): if it is a stolen engine
Maurizio13 (To all): i already thinked
TOrt2 (To all): why not sue them in court ???
Maurizio13 (To all): sooner or later...
Maurizio13 (To all): business is business
HarveyWilliamson (To all): what have they stolen from CB - nothing
TOrt2 (To all): Europe has very strict copyright laws
Zagor Almanah (To all): the engines can not be sold because, authors behind it don't charge any money for it
Elitejustice (To all): might be easy to speculate that it is a clone...much harder to prove in court
Zagor Almanah (To all): got that Tort2 ?
Elitejustice (To all): and it costs $$ to fight a court case
TOrt2 (To all): doesnt matter zagor
TOrt2 (To all): if the clone is a copy of rybka that is theft
TOrt2 (To all): the fact that it is given for free doesn't matter
TOrt2 (To all): its theft
TOrt2 (To all): what i don't understand is why rybka/chessbase doesn't sue the clone maker in court
TOrt2 (To all): get a temporary injunction
Elitejustice (To all): it may very well be theft...but like I said...it would be much more difficult to prove that in court
Maurizio13 (To all): i sont think free engines so strong will be free for long....
TOrt2 (To all): i can't fathom that
TOrt2 (To all): not really difficult to prove
TOrt2 (To all): easy from what i understand
Third Musketeer (To all): Tort, territorial jurisdiction
TOrt2 (To all): it seems to me from what i have read that the unmentionable IS INDEED a copy of rybka
TOrt2 (To all): the european union has something similar to the united states i believe
Third Musketeer (To all): where will you sue ?
TOrt2 (To all): the point is it does seem that rybka is the victim of intellectual theft
Zagor Almanah (To all): the (people ) not just a single man is behind clone engine, so how can CB sue anyone, if they don't know who they are ?
TOrt2 (To all): why don't they sue, that is what puzzles me
Zagor Almanah (To all): much less Vas himself
Third Musketeer (To all): Tort, if you read me
Third Musketeer (To all): where are they gonna sue?
TOrt2 (To all): yes third, i read you
Elitejustice (To all): good point
Third Musketeer (To all): a copy of rybka costs about $100
HarveyWilliamson (To all): who do you sue - all those made up stupid names
TOrt2 (To all): they can sue the domain that host the site where its downloaded
Elitejustice (To all): where and who to sue are two big problems to deal with
TOrt2 (To all): no harvey
TOrt2 (To all): you sue to find out who is paying
Third Musketeer (To all): and in which country?
TOrt2 (To all): for the site where its downloaded
TOrt2 (To all): then you track him/her down
TOrt2 (To all): and sue them
Third Musketeer (To all): remember Tort, i am only concerning about the legalities, not on the issue of those engines at any moment
TOrt2 (To all): that's how you do it
HarveyWilliamson (To all): file sharing sites?
TOrt2 (To all): yes harvey
TOrt2 (To all): you sue them as a discovery suit
TOrt2 (To all): just to find out who they receive money from
HarveyWilliamson (To all): so you upload to them from an internet cafe
Third Musketeer (To all): in that eventuality, all the money that they earned from rybka, that simply goes to litigation charges
TOrt2 (To all): you need to find a name first
TOrt2 (To all): no harvey
TOrt2 (To all): i am talking about the guy who allegedly created the clone
Third Musketeer (To all): I will give an example Tort
Elitejustice (To all): but they are not selling the free engine
Third Musketeer (To all): listen now
TOrt2 (To all): he has a site that host the engine
Elitejustice (To all): so where is the money coming from?
TOrt2 (To all): not yet
HarveyWilliamson (To all): but you have to start with the idiots who decompiled it not him
Zagor Almanah (To all): it is easy to make a website on wiki, and call it whatever you want
TOrt2 (To all): i think the clone author is trying to get a contract from chessbase
TOrt2 (To all): harvey, you start with one person
HarveyWilliamson (To all): the robbo ippo guys to afraid to give a real name
Elitejustice (To all): now if they start making $$ of the free engine...I would expect a lawsuit to follow
Zagor Almanah (To all): under a fake name
TOrt2 (To all): and then you go to the rest
Third Musketeer (To all): A committed intellectual theft of B in X country, for B to track him and sue him in X country, he will incur too much charges
Maurizio13 (To all): popularity of rybka depends by clones or derivates so clones will ever exist
TOrt2 (To all): harvey, if the ippo people get a subpoena they WILL have to answer
TOrt2 (To all): trust me
TOrt2 (To all): its not healthy to ignore a court order
Third Musketeer (To all): Tort, what you do?
Third Musketeer (To all): you are missing the basic point
TOrt2 (To all): i am a lawyer/attorney
HarveyWilliamson (To all): in the short term you get a stronger engine in the long term you only get cluster rybka so no strength increase to the public so they have nothing new to decompile
Third Musketeer (To all): and where?
TOrt2 (To all): what point ?
Liquid Soul (To all): then you lie
TOrt2 (To all): the USA
Third Musketeer (To all): District fora?
TOrt2 (To all): 2n district, eastern ny
TOrt2 (To all): why ?
Third Musketeer (To all): i am in the legal field myself friend
TOrt2 (To all): cool
TOrt2 (To all): what field ?
Elitejustice (To all): <<work in Downtown Los Angeles Superior Court
Third Musketeer (To all): I work with the country's top judges
TOrt2 (To all): hmm
Liquid Soul (To all): i am a judge
TOrt2 (To all): lol @ the judge
Elitejustice (To all): really?
Third Musketeer (To all): lol
Third Musketeer (To all): joke*
Third Musketeer (To all): Tort, now see these two aspects
Liquid Soul (To all): Order in this court
Elitejustice (To all): Soul?? Judge where?
Elitejustice (To all): lol
TOrt2 (To all): i third, i see where you are coming from
Liquid Soul (To all): i am not a judge just messing with them
Elitejustice (To all): this forum's Judge
HarveyWilliamson (To all): soul has had to much liquid i think
Maurizio13 (To all): thats not the points Tort, rybka ''needs'' clones, because rybka's popularity depends, in a part, by clones
TOrt2 (To all): i just don't understand why chessbase doesn't take steps to find out who is stealing their code
Liquid Soul (To all): hehe
Elitejustice (To all): lol @ Harvey
TOrt2 (To all): it does ?
Maurizio13 (To all): ya
Third Musketeer (To all): 1) This Rybka is not like Microsoft where they can keep on tracking the infringer and pursuing their remedies
Maurizio13 (To all): in a part
Third Musketeer (To all): 2) If they do so, they will be insolvent
HarveyWilliamson (To all): it is not an issue for cb - only person who can is the rybka autjor
HarveyWilliamson (To all): *author
TOrt2 (To all): harvey, one other thing i don't get
Third Musketeer (To all): the leaks are not from a single source, they originated from various sources around the world
Third Musketeer (To all): and where do they track them?
TOrt2 (To all): is why the author of the clone doesn't sue rybka and chessbase
TOrt2 (To all): for defamation of character
Maurizio13 (To all): imagine a scenario without all clones and derivates and other, do u really think that without them rybka would have more sales? I dont think so
TOrt2 (To all): or libel
TOrt2 (To all): if its true as he claims that he is the author
TOrt2 (To all): this whole controversy is intriguing
HarveyWilliamson (To all): sad;y most of you dont buy rybka anyway
Elitejustice (To all): Rybka definitely would have more sales without all the controversy and by selling a buggy engine
TOrt2 (To all): that is unfortunately true
Elitejustice (To all): with no clones...Rybka remains on top...people always like a winner
Maurizio13 (To all): no, i would be more interested in rybka knowiung there are free engines that can compete to it
HarveyWilliamson (To all): sure they should fix the bugs but that is not an excuse to use stolen property
Third Musketeer (To all): from what i see, Rybka's downfall has begun
Third Musketeer (To all): for two reasons, 1) this entire issue, 2) the ambition to become more rich from the cluster rental
Elitejustice (To all): have to agree with Musketeer
TOrt2 (To all): what some don't seem to understand is that if stealing is allowed to proceed, what incentive is there to imporvae?
TOrt2 (To all): improve
Maurizio13 (To all): the problem of rybka are not clones, clones make grow rybka's popularity, the problem of rybka is that its never updated
Elitejustice (To all): quick poll: how many of you would pay for rental Rybka??
TOrt2 (To all): too much for me
TOrt2 (To all): lol
TOrt2 (To all): i saw the price
Elitejustice (To all): <<not raising my hand....not me
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Liquid Soul (To all): thats funny Rybka's down fall...ibeen here since 2000 i have seen a Big change here
Third Musketeer (To all): If someone keeps on lending me for free, then i would rent it
Maurizio13 (To all): yes the price of rental is very high
Third Musketeer (To all): but instead, i might build my own cluster
Third Musketeer (To all): and hire the top programmers to make an engine
Elitejustice (To all): how much would that cost? lol
Maurizio13 (To all): i dont rem exactly but a lot and u need to pay for a minimum of hours
Third Musketeer (To all): 250 euros per 1 hour
Third Musketeer (To all): minimum 5 days
Maurizio13 (To all): absurd, thats for millionairs
Elitejustice (To all): if Stockfish overtakes R4....and stays ahead...how long do you think it will remain free??
Third Musketeer (To all): 250*5 = bankruptcy
TOrt2 (To all): good observation elite
Liquid Soul (To all): ok i have a question that hasnt been answered. WHy cant people use Houdini in here
TOrt2 (To all): that is what i think may happen
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i have no problem with them selling time on the cluster for whatever price they think they can get - the problem is while they develop this they do not fix the bugs they promised to
Maurizio13 (To all): Elite is right! All so strong engines cannot remain free for ever.....
Elitejustice (To all): sshhhhhh....don't mention that name....
Maurizio13 (To all): i didnt lol
Elitejustice (To all): go sit in the corner...you are on a time out! {{blows whistle}}
Third Musketeer (To all): it's complete stupidity that a person shells out so much money just for 1 hour analyis
Third Musketeer (To all): analysis
Liquid Soul (To all): Havey why cant people use Houdini in here i dont know why
TOrt2 (To all): lol
HarveyWilliamson (To all): if you think renaming an engine makes you a strong author....
TOrt2 (To all): here we go aggain
Elitejustice (To all): rofl!
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i wonder if the clone authors if locked in a room could write a basic program that plays chess?!
Elitejustice (To all): Tort...he's gonna get slapped on the wrist
TOrt2 (To all): oh my
Liquid Soul (To all): i have never know why i ask but these guy say ask cheebase, so i ask you
TOrt2 (To all): sanctions
TOrt2 (To all): his claim is going to be dismissed with extreme prejudice
Liquid Soul (To all): huh
Liquid Soul (To all): tort do you know why
Formula Reject: Rated 5m + 0s from Frau Holle
Third Musketeer (To all): Houdi Haunts !
TOrt2 (To all): cause he said a bad word
Third Musketeer (To all): the sooner you forget, the safer you are here Soul
Elitejustice (To all): Liquid because the Auuthor who is a friend of this site claims that engine was derived from stolen code...thus a no no to mention here
Liquid Soul (To all): no i dont want to use it i just wanted to know why
Elitejustice (To all): that's why
Liquid Soul (To all): ok see thank you
Maurizio13 (To all): each word on clones increases rybka's popularity
HarveyWilliamson (To all): what amongstthe 80 people in here? most do not care
TOrt2 (To all): to be honest, after my nephew downloaded the clone, i played it in yahoo; i didn't think it was that strong
Third Musketeer (To all): you mean, if it were strong, you wouldnt be suggesting to sue it?
TOrt2 (To all): i think having fast hardware and a good book is more crucial to success
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yep Muskahound some forget their morals if they think it gains 1 elo
TOrt2 (To all): harvey, please; that is so cynical
Third Musketeer (To all): easy easy
Elitejustice (To all): yeah....but Rybka's endgame needs much help that others seem to have found answers to
TOrt2 (To all): yeah?
TOrt2 (To all): like what ?
Third Musketeer (To all): i am back to searching porn
Third Musketeer (To all): nite all
TOrt2 (To all): that's what i noticed; its weak endgame play
Maurizio13 (To all): mr williamson, i cant beliave that people who know or download free engines or clons dont buy also rybka to make some games with their pc, its impossible, i mean, if there are those clones i m sure people is more interested in buying rybka, at least chess engines fans, maybe not only occasionally players..
Third Musketeer (To all): wet dreams for me
Elitejustice (To all): more accurate analysis for one
TOrt2 (To all): amen to that
HarveyWilliamson (To all): there is a sad fact here that more than 50% who play here with Rybka do not buy it
Third Musketeer (To all): may be thanks to that guy who leaked it? [EMO_LOL]
Maurizio13 (To all): uh how do u know?
TOrt2 (To all): harvey, isn't there a way to verify if the engine is legit ?
Maurizio13 (To all): i buy rybka, who plays rybka without buying??
Elitejustice (To all): i posted a game on rybka forum....where I had King Queen vs lone King by move 80.....Rybka played that game all the way to move 153 and I lost the game...well Drew the game due to loss on time
Elitejustice (To all): that's is a serious bug!
BobbyC: <Formula> rated 2200-3500Elo 3min 1s >=Pawn
Elitejustice (To all): would not checkmate the king....
Formula Reject: Rated 5m + 0s from Frau Holle
TOrt2 (To all): elite, i notice the same thing in the endgame
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i dont think that is a bug it is something that needs to be fixed in a later version - bugs are showstoppers like the multi pv bug
Maurizio13 (To all): it happened to me that here rybka couldnt win rook and king vs only king
HarveyWilliamson (To all): load tbs
Maurizio13 (To all): ya
Third Musketeer (To all): [EMO_LOL]
Maurizio13 (To all): i didnt have that time
Maurizio13 (To all): but i thought on i7980x rybka would have seen mate in12
Jannotin (To all): dont forget we have paid for a beta version
Elitejustice (To all): yeah with or without TB I can beat Rybka 4 by myself if I had KQ v K So Rybka great* for sure should have figured that out
Jannotin (To all): final one in 2014-2015 !
Elitejustice (To all): here is the post in question re: my game.
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=19764
Maurizio13 (To all): yes elite, the point is that rybka so any other decent engine should mate anyway tbs or not
Elitejustice (To all): exactly
Elitejustice (To all): I think that whatever Vas did to dumb R4 down indirectly or directly led to a lot of the bugs assosicated with it
Maurizio13 (To all): honestly i think its possible
Elitejustice (To all): were he allowed to put out the finished product that he originally came up with, I bet there would be less problems with it
Elitejustice (To all): he had to make it weaker to allow for strength increases with Rental Rybka
Jannotin (To all): lol
Maurizio13 (To all): i think he simply leaves a margin to be able to release next version easier, i think he doesnt make a perfect work on purpose
Bommetje (To all): that was gods thought when creating men too
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): lol@ Bommetje
Elitejustice (To all): Same thing goes with Apple
HarveyWilliamson (To all): you all have the choice to buy it or not, although i agree serious bugs should be fixed in a timely manner
Elitejustice (To all): they could make the iphone or ipad better....but they leave things out of initial version so they have a reason to sell version 2 the following year
Maurizio13 (To all): ya
Elitejustice (To all): ipad 2 will now have a camera and maybe flash....duhhh...ipad 1 could have had that!
Maurizio13 (To all): excactly what i was saying about rybka
Maurizio13 (To all): i think r5 is probably ready, talking about strenght but it will be released when it will be necessary to be released
Elitejustice (To all): yeah...if Vas gave away all of his elo in 1 release...he can't sell the next release...
Maurizio13 (To all): ya, i think so too
Elitejustice (To all): I bet R5 is really the initial release of what R4 should have been without being dumbed down
Maurizio13 (To all): its is possible
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i dont think you will see R5 for a long time - as it will just be decompiled and you guys will all claim you have a super new original engine
Maurizio13 (To all): i only play allowed engine, i own rybka 4, naum 4.2, shredder 12 and other engines free like stockfish and critter
Elitejustice (To all): I'm no computer geek...I don't really understand how they decompile it...but I do belive that it is done....that is sad
HarveyWilliamson (To all): my comment not aimed directly at you
Maurizio13 (To all): i know mr williamson, i was talking only for myself, dont know other people what they do, sorry for my english very bad lol
Elitejustice (To all): your english is very good
Bommetje (To all): if we all have new engine the elo will stay the same more or less....only the gameplay gets more complex as it is already
Maurizio13 (To all): thank u elite but it isnt true!
HarveyWilliamson (To all): you have cloned your english very well [EMO_WINK]
Elitejustice (To all): I have understood every word that you have said...and I'm not the most intelligent person out there
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): good one Harvey
Bommetje (To all): There will be an update soon
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Bommetje (To all): of Elite
Elitejustice (To all): says who?
Maurizio13 (To all): i hope so
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): a clone of me....wheeww....the ladies would be in trouble
Elitejustice (To all): [EMO_LOL]
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Maurizio13 (To all): also men would be
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): I'm bad enough without a clone
Elitejustice (To all): although I always did wish I had an identical twin
Bommetje (To all): i won't be updated, i will be sended back to the source
HarveyWilliamson (To all): rybka has a few evil twins now
Elitejustice (To all): lol
Elitejustice (To all): doppleganger
Elitejustice (To all): Twins ate their vegetables like Popeye!
HarveyWilliamson (To all): toga is stronger than fruit takes a few seconds of playing with the settings
HarveyWilliamson (To all): as an entity you are wrong - as its cluster is the strongest
Elitejustice (To all): just like a boxing champ...no one remembers #2!
Elitejustice (To all): as soon as stockfish overtakes r4....watch how many in here still use r4!
Maurizio13 (To all): eras start and end, it has been always so, clusters depend mainly by the number of cpu's i would like to see naum (that scales vmuch better than rybka) on 200 cores
Elitejustice (To all): that's a big statement![EMO_SURPRISED]
HarveyWilliamson (To all): you guys would have a lot more fun if you forgot about ello and just had some fun games here
Maurizio13 (To all): no 12 cores cant compete vs 200
HarveyWilliamson (To all): there is no prizes for best elo
Elitejustice (To all): no...but there is bragging rights for being top ranked in here..
Elitejustice (To all): I get ya FWCC
Maurizio13 (To all): yeah i know what u meant
Maurizio13 (To all): it depemnds also by the engine
HarveyWilliamson (To all): if i was Vishy or magnis with 2800+ elo that has bragging rights - being top here who really cares?
Elitejustice (To all): even better point
Maurizio13 (To all): crafty on 3 millions cores, with all respect, probably would lose against rybka cluster
Elitejustice (To all): lol
HarveyWilliamson (To all): but if there was no crafty - there would be very few top engines around
Maurizio13 (To all): lol
HarveyWilliamson (To all): crafty has a very important place in computer chess hostory
Maurizio13 (To all): yes its true
Maurizio13 (To all): but its strenght is poor
HarveyWilliamson (To all): you miss the point
HarveyWilliamson (To all): so many people have used crafty and hyatt as a starting point
HarveyWilliamson (To all): and it is not weak it would beat any human
Maurizio13 (To all): yes mr williamson, no discuss on that i was only talking about strenght in elo
HarveyWilliamson (To all): btw you can call me Harvey
Maurizio13 (To all): ah ok harvey
HarveyWilliamson (To all): because he does not fight*
HarveyWilliamson (To all): fight = c h e a t
Maurizio13 (To all): yes i know, thanks
Maurizio13 (To all): Glaurung has made a part of recent chess engines history too
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yes for sure Tord is a smart guy
Elitejustice (To all): i have a different offtopic question: Computer Genius...is that simply innate or can that be taught?
Maurizio13 (To all): human?
Elitejustice (To all): how can Magnus be so strong as such a young age?
Elitejustice (To all): human
Elitejustice (To all): yes
HarveyWilliamson (To all): he is a clone [EMO_WINK]
Elitejustice (To all): rofl!!
Maurizio13 (To all): i believe it depends by talent and age of starting playing
Elitejustice (To all): smart a** that was funny
Elitejustice (To all): i mean there are multiple GM's who have reached that before their 16th birthday
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yes he is a talent for sure and head to head with Vishy for number 1Elitejustice (To all): and some who study all their lives will never reach that
Elitejustice (To all): I would serious like to know how their brain works...what do they see in thier mind that others can not
Maurizio13 (To all): i think u must consider the age in which u start playing, if u start after 20 its hard to become so strong....
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yes many will study forever and best they will get is 1800-2000 eloElitejustice (To all): exazctly
Elitejustice (To all): and Magnus made GM at 14? 13?
Maurizio13 (To all): its like a language...if u learn it as child u will learn it perfectly, if u try to learn it at 30, maybe u will learn it but not so good
HarveyWilliamson (To all): we will see them all play each other over the next few days in hollandElitejustice (To all): who is your pick to win Harvey?
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i have to go for my friand
Elitejustice (To all): who is that?
HarveyWilliamson (To all): The Vish
Elitejustice (To all): o ok....u know him personally?
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yes regular points this time
HarveyWilliamson (To all): ye
HarveyWilliamson (To all): s
Elitejustice (To all): does he ever play here?
HarveyWilliamson (To all): he has done
Elitejustice (To all): lol
HarveyWilliamson (To all): I was on his team when he retained the title in bulgaria
Elitejustice (To all): you and these clones![EMO_WINK]
Elitejustice (To all): nice
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i hope i helped but he is the champ
Elitejustice (To all): lol FW
HarveyWilliamson (To all): i am in the semi final of the correspondence world championshipMaurizio13 (To all): harvey is pocket hiarcs the strongest engine for mobile devices??
HarveyWilliamson (To all): and i have corr. im title
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yes on ppc iphone etc hiarcs is the strongest
Maurizio13 (To all): ah thank u i thought that
Elitejustice (To all): is it?
HarveyWilliamson (To all): yep

[Jeremy Bernstein]

I actually think Harvey was just fine there. He was expressing some opinions I disagree with and making overarching generalizations with little basis in fact to make his point, but he wasn't hitting people with bans or threatening to do so.