Without the Clean Room

General discussion about computer chess...
BB+
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by BB+ » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:14 pm

I might make another comment.

Suppose (for the sake of argument) that the IPPOLIT developers formed their product by: creating a "Rybka 3 emulator", and then modifying this. There are two components here as to copyright law. The first is whether the creation of the emulator was done in a legal way; the second (applied if the first is not the case) is whether the modifications are substantial enough to make it "original". I stress the first item because, in theory, they could even sell the "Rybka 3 Emulator" if it were formed in a legal manner (not sure anyone would buy it, but).

Similarly, for the sake of argument, let's say VR made a "Fruit 2.1 emulator" (at least of the evaluation function) on top of his Rybka 1.6(?) bitboard code, and then proceeded to modify it. Same logic applies, and let's assume that the "modifications" are deemed insubstantial from the standpoint of copyright law. The gist of all this is the following: the emulator has now become an affirmative defense for VR (that is, "Yes, what you say is true, Rybka does "derive" from Fruit, but that is not relevant because..."), and affirmative defenses reverse the burden of proof, that is, now VR would have to show that he had made this "Fruit 2.1 emulator" in a legal manner. Given his history with old code, would he likely be able to do this? :?: Again, I'm just randomly speculating on some (possible) legal aspects, and/or pitfalls in the road ahead.

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Chris Whittington
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by Chris Whittington » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 pm

orgfert wrote:
Chris Whittington wrote:It's all a big ego trip. Take Bob, who has to be the first to ever implement anything, or if he wasn't had to know intimately and exclusively the person who did. For such a high priest anyone else doing better, in less time, has to be, well, all those nasty things he said about Vas. As soon as it is admitted that the chess program chunks are simple and almost anyone can put them together, and mostly they get put together is similar ways, and that most of the "tuning" is tinkering around, we can begin to see that chess programs are LEGO like constructions and the participating programmers are just children playing, pretending to be. It's all an existential problem as per usual.
This seems to undermine your other hobbyhorse, that of giving creators (i.e. ego-tripping children playing with blocks, pretending, faking, etc.) more rights in a forum than everyone else.

;)
Creators set up the forum for creators. Non-creatives, encouraged by the shop, now swamp the forum. It is not relevent how wonderful or not wonderful the creatives are, they surely have the right to be able to discuss their industry and vote on it without a barrage of enduser "contributions", some is ok, a barrage is not. Too complicated for you?

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Chris Whittington
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by Chris Whittington » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:42 pm

BB+ wrote:I might make another comment.

Suppose (for the sake of argument) that the IPPOLIT developers formed their product by: creating a "Rybka 3 emulator", and then modifying this. There are two components here as to copyright law. The first is whether the creation of the emulator was done in a legal way; the second (applied if the first is not the case) is whether the modifications are substantial enough to make it "original". I stress the first item because, in theory, they could even sell the "Rybka 3 Emulator" if it were formed in a legal manner (not sure anyone would buy it, but).

Similarly, for the sake of argument, let's say VR made a "Fruit 2.1 emulator" (at least of the evaluation function) on top of his Rybka 1.6(?) bitboard code, and then proceeded to modify it. Same logic applies, and let's assume that the "modifications" are deemed insubstantial from the standpoint of copyright law. The gist of all this is the following: the emulator has now become an affirmative defense for VR (that is, "Yes, what you say is true, Rybka does "derive" from Fruit, but that is not relevant because..."), and affirmative defenses reverse the burden of proof, that is, now VR would have to show that he had made this "Fruit 2.1 emulator" in a legal manner. Given his history with old code, would he likely be able to do this? :?: Again, I'm just randomly speculating on some (possible) legal aspects, and/or pitfalls in the road ahead.
I think you wrote another post connected to this but I cant find it and am therefore not putting your entire argument together, so forgive me if I'm being random here .....

This emulator ..... if he doesn't publish it, isn't it legal per se under the GPL in that he can mess with Fruit GPL version, make internal versions, whatever, just as long as he either doesnt publish or publishes with source?

orgfert
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by orgfert » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:44 pm

Chris Whittington wrote:Creators set up the forum for creators. Non-creatives, encouraged by the shop...Too complicated for you?
Forsooth it was your very creators who set up the forum which you admit is a failure. Not to mention when you'd bent your sainted creativity into a forum of your own daring design, it did suck withal. Is a forum too complicated for you?

BB+
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by BB+ » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:39 pm

This emulator ..... if he doesn't publish it, isn't it legal per se under the GPL in that he can mess with Fruit GPL version, make internal versions, whatever, just as long as he either doesnt publish or publishes with source?
Yes. My point was that (in some strands of this analysis) we can just throw away the "modifications" consideration, and simply look at the question of how the Fruit-like (or Rybka-like in the IPPOLIT case) thing was made in the first place. If that was done in a legitimate way (via "clean room" or "spec", or maybe a million monkeys), then there's no further debate.

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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by BB+ » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:24 am

If that was done in a legitimate way (via "clean room" or "spec", or maybe a million monkeys), then there's no further debate.
Again this might be reading too much into things, but from the VR answers of last June:
Re. Fruit and Rybka: The Rybka source code is original. I did take a lot of things from Fruit, but legally.
As I stated above, if this is an "affirmative" defence, it could become VR's responsibility to show that he did in fact do this in a legal manner, which could be rather difficult w/o the R1 source code.

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Chris Whittington
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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by Chris Whittington » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:05 pm

BB+ wrote:
If that was done in a legitimate way (via "clean room" or "spec", or maybe a million monkeys), then there's no further debate.
Again this might be reading too much into things, but from the VR answers of last June:
Re. Fruit and Rybka: The Rybka source code is original. I did take a lot of things from Fruit, but legally.
As I stated above, if this is an "affirmative" defence, it could become VR's responsibility to show that he did in fact do this in a legal manner, which could be rather difficult w/o the R1 source code.
In the absence of source it would also be possible for VR to simply solemnly swear that he did XYZ. Then it is up to the accusers to present evidence that he didn't

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Re: Without the Clean Room

Post by hyatt » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:57 pm

the rybka 1 beta binary will haunt him seriously if he relies on "I lost it" as a defense...

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